Not By Works
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sevenseas
Guest
I don't know how much he knows about Vineyard but I know about it because I was a part of it while living in Canada
I'm not knocking Vineyard and I don't see where Megg did either? He mentionned Wimber as a part of the total post
why pick that out?
what he says about the nar is true. I know about that first hand as well and also wof.
as far as Vineyard goes, we probably all appreciate their music, but not all churches are the same
if I were to tell you some of what went down where I was going, I don't think you would agree with it all and on the other hand, in some ways it was the best church I ever went to
then someone else took it over and it became all about visions, dreams and interpretations of the Bible that were not sane
every single person who had been there at the inception, 3 years prior left. every single person who left were foundational to that church and every single one of us were grieved and hurt at what had happened and every single one of us knew that error was taking the place of truth
when someone rebukes those who tell everyone that GAWD told them to say what they say, you had better have a better frame of reference then the words coming of their mouths
been there
done that
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sevenseas
Guest
it's garbage
not every church is the same
some are very good...Vineyard
I no longer go to Vineyard
there are Vineyard churches in our area, but because of our experience with false preaching and teaching, my husband would not darken the doorsteps again
there is unbelievable damage done while these false teachers and prophets swagger around onstage and put on a show
I've seen plenty and thankfully, because of unbiblical things that started happening to me, I began to realize it was not of God and certainly not the Holy Spirit
people are accepting things from another spirit and they think because they are in a so called church setting that it must be God
have you ever seen Bentley live? doing his act? he's a monster and some people love it so
he's overt in his flirtation with the devil. many are deceitful because they are deceived and filled with deception and the words they speak find good ground because they are spoken with the power of a deceiving spirit
it is almost impossible to break free.
I point out that he was speaking of Wimber's views as being aligned with things John did not hold to. He was not addressing what your particular church may have evolved into... nor my Vineyard. Actually, my own congregation has drifted a fair ways from what true stated and documented Vineyard beliefs and values are.
I think there is a lot of confusion surrounding covenants.
Abraham believed God's promise to him, and that faith was counted to him as righteousness. The next question out of Abraham's mouth "How will I KNOW that I will inherit it?"
God proceeds to put him in a deep sleep of horror and great darkness.
THEN ONLY God walked through the cut up animals, swearing by HIMSELF that He would fulfill His promise to Abraham.
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
7 Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
8 And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
This is an UNCONDITIONAL Covenant! There was/is NOTHING Abraham had to do on his end except believe, which he did, but STILL questioned. His question didn't change God's resolve.
The Mosaic covenant is FULL of conditions. If the nation does X God WILL do Y. If the nation doesn't do X, God WILL Y.
In the new Covenant, our faith given to us by God in Jesus is accounted as righteousness to us. We WERE dead, now we're born again, and SEALED with the Holy Spirit.
Just like the Abrahamic Covenant, the new Covenant is UNCONDITIONAL after we have Jesus righteousness imputed to us.
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gentiles to me in the old testement where the people who where uncirmusized... if God hadnt brought forward a new order i bet most of us would be circumsized by now lol
One in Christ
10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. 11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands) — 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.…
Willie,
My point was not calling out vineyard or Wimber, as 7seas stated, I just mentioned him and the movement, I was not giving a history lesson on Wimber or vineyard...
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sevenseas
Guest
I'm not a stranger to the platform in a church. nor to leadership in church. nobody has to tell me or can tell me what it's like because I've had both the blessing and bad things going along with that
I'm not going off on a what I have or have not done or do. the attitudes displayed in this forum are the meat and potatoes of churches everywhere which explains the division, the mess in congregations where people have feuds going or are jealous of the someone elses' 'ministry'
I figure I have nothing to offer and certainly no ministry other than what I might receive on a daily basis. manna gets stale by the next day.
the Hinns, Joyners and Johnsons of this world do indeed have a ministry but it's not God's
they annoint each other, pulling on OT scripture to do so and then turn around and tell you everything in the OT is past
it's a flip flop and such sly word usage that you have to have an ear for it or you fall for it
I got my ear for it by falling for it and being in it for 7 years. you know when I got in trouble? when I would not be manipulated or be told what I should say and then say it was from God
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sevenseas
Guest
I know you go to Vineyard and I concede they can be very good
God knows I LOVED mine ... before it went south
I thought I was pretty clear on that?
anyway.....no probs
I'll add that so called SOF can be misleading. the Vineyard SOF is a pretty good one IMO...
Gentiles are not God's chosen. The hebrews through jacob was chosen as God's people. Everybody else was known as gentiles.
~Actually Jim...we are circumcised in heart when we are born again.
I don't know why but where I grew up, circumcision is done on the baby boys. We do sign for it, but I thought it was actually a law until I came to the first forum years ago, and found out it is not. Not even in nursing did I hear it wasn't law. All my family are.
I think Jews viewed gentiles as pagans. They were clean people in every way. The Jews I mean...I have no idea about pagans. lol
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sevenseas
Guest
well anyway can't be on here all day
but I do truly pray God keeps us in Him
that is what really counts
hugs all around. I know some of you really do have a heart for God. I'm not judging hearts but there is plenty to be concerned about in the actions and so called extra-biblical things that are not of God and I know people would like to convince me they are
but like I said
been there, done that, including an out of body experience that to this day I don't even know what the hay happened but it was not God. that much I know
but I do truly pray God keeps us in Him
that is what really counts
hugs all around. I know some of you really do have a heart for God. I'm not judging hearts but there is plenty to be concerned about in the actions and so called extra-biblical things that are not of God and I know people would like to convince me they are
but like I said
been there, done that, including an out of body experience that to this day I don't even know what the hay happened but it was not God. that much I know
Thank you for the hug, and hugs in return... interesting about your OBE... God did allow it, but aside from that, I am curious as to what you were exploring at the time, if anything, meaning, were you a seeker but not Christian at the time? Were you dabbling in things you maybe ought not to have been?
Amen...it's our inheritance left to Abrahams seed of faith.
I loved studying that word beryith. Leading to the Lamp passing through the split sacrifices.. yet not the doves separated.
I see you love it too PennEd.
I posted all about on your thread about it, there are 17-18 provisions....if you want to see the verses I used to verify all that I say below go back to your thread on the topic and look for them there.
The New Covenant was made by God to Both houses of Israel and never to the gentiles directly.
Jeremiah 31.31-34 is the basis for the New Covenant
As a gentile believer, I was never under Mosaic law and I am not today, I was a law unto myself-Romans 2...
As a Gentile believer I am grafted into the new Covenant and I am partaker of the New Covenant. I am not under a second part or second covenant of the New covenant. IOW, there are not 2 new Covenants-one for the Jews and one for the Church, nor did I replace the Jews as God chosen people. As a gentile believer I will never receive the material blessings the Jews are promised alone in the New Covenant, I have a responsibility to Bless the Jews Materially....
As a gentile partaker of the new covenant I access all the spiritual blessings of the covenant, which includes, perosnal salvation, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and forgiveness of sin....I receive these blessings by grace through my own perosnal faith, and not through any self work or self effort, lest I boast....I partake of these spiritual blessings through understanding and exercising belief and faith that Jesus Christ and his shed blood is the ratification of the new covenant.
As a gentile believer I have the obligation to obey the Law of Christ which is a provision of the New Covenant. Under the Law of Christ there is no sabbath law and there are no more dietary/hygienic laws....The Law of Christ is more intensified than the Law of Moses>
Finally,
The motivation of the Old Covenant and Law of Moses was conditional: DO in order to be Blessed...
The Gentile Believers motivation of the New covenant and Law of Christ is unconditional: You have been and are blessed, therefore do.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Amen, The new covenant is nothing other than the Abraham covenant fulfilled. Since this was a non conditional covenant, the covenant which comes from its fulfiment would be unconditional also.
The problem is people want to make a new old covenant (a covenant of laws, even if it does not include the mosaic laws) and teach this is the new covenant, when it is really the old covenant disguised..