Not By Works

[willybob]

It look like salvation require work, but it is not. It is faith alone.

For example if if a man accept Jesus and die in the next second, I believe he is save.

but I believe, there is correlation between faith and work. The more you have faith in Jesus, the more you produce the fruit.

And the fruit is love

The last judgement in Matt 25 look like requirement work of love to go to heaven, but if we read the whole bible, it is the fruit, not something we can produce, branch can bear fruit of itself

Also not work in the sense of ritual, or sabbath keeper, no. Work in the sense of love the needy.

catholic seem interperate work as a ritual babtism, ritual communion etc, it is not count in the last hudgement as Jesus Himself informed us, how He will judge human

Let me repeat it is work of Love

Read matt 25, what kind of work Jesus talking about

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

in my country, people heat the poor, some parent tell to the children to end his girlfriend or boyfriend being poor, people in my country proud of wealth.

Jesus want us to love the poor, it is difficult task for Indonesian.

Jesus said I was stranger and you invite me in

Some people in my country are racist. They do not like stranger Ido not know what happen in the last judgment

faith alone is found nowhere in scripture, Martin Luther invented it for the purpose of being saved while still in his sins....In fact the complete opposite is taught in the text......faith without works is dead said the apostle James.......

faith and good works CANNOT be separated they are contingent upon each other to produce (piao) the fruits of the Spirit.....be blessed

 

[followjesus]

its the earnest of integrity, in that God is faithful, however its no guarantee, that was invented by Reformationists like Luther etc..man MUST do his part (faithful works of love) and remain obedient to the covenant, and he that endures to the end the same shall be saved said Jesus, lest he receive the grace of God in vain, said Paul.....

Jesus said he would have gathered them in like a mother hen does with her chicks under her wings, (It was His desire that they should be gathered), BUT they were NOT WILLING....God CANNOT circumvent mans freewill to chose whom he will serve...

Knowing this first: God only sees the future as reality, therefore possibilities are not certaintoies and that is reality...

be blessed

excellent stuff bro. the Holy spirit is the power to do our part, so God also gets the glory in all we do. oif Jesus Had not come we were Lost, if He had not died for us, we were Lost, if He had not been raised up from death, we were Lost, if He had not been exalted to the throne as our mediator, our advocate we were done, if He hadnt promised to send the Holy spirit we were done, if He hadnt been faithful and done that we were done......we are without excuse if we claim to be a new creation full of the Holy spirit, then Gods Word will be acceptable the Holy spirit will never disregard Gods Word all we have to do is believe what is there take it to Heart and His patience and power will go to work, when it does doing our part will not be an issue or argument. He suffered so greatly, and spoke so clearly.

Jesus is everything the Word of God says He is, we Know this because God said it. He did all He said He did to make us new, we Know this because God said it, He has instructed us clearly we Know this because He was saying it as He was teaching us. all we truly need is Fauth in the Word of God given through Jesus Christ that is eternal Life. before He died as our ransom.....He said He would. Before that isaiah and the prophets said He would. we Know for certain He rose because all the witnesses said He did. and well before that He said He would and then did. we Know the Holy spirit is GFiven because He said it is, we Know were new creations because He sauid we are. we Know what God expects of us, Because He says it clearly and thouroughly repeats it. we Know all we Know of God and His word because of Faith, faith doesnt cast Gods Word away because someone says we should. thats bound to come because we see it over and over again in His Word and every time it brings destruction to the world, to nations even to Gods elect it brought 2000 years scattered from thier Hom, pestilence, the sword made Gods chosen the most persecuted people on earth all because they would not treat Gods Word.....as if it was Gods WORD.

 

[Jackson123]

faith alone is found nowhere in scripture, Martin Luther invented it for the purpose of being saved while still in his sins....In fact the complete opposite is taught in the text......faith without works is dead said the apostle James.......

faith and good works CANNOT be separated they are contingent upon each other to produce (piao) the fruits of the Spirit.....be blessed

what happen If one accept Jesus and die the next second.

 

[MattforJesus]

It is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,so we have a choice,and if we do evil we could of chose the good.

We sin not because we cannot abstain from sin,but because we want to sin,which even the world can abstain from sin if they want,but they live according to the flesh,so they want to do the things according to the flesh,which some are worse than others,but many abstain from many sins,as the world chooses what sins they like,and what sins they do not like,and the sins they do not like they do not have a problem abstaining from those sins,and if they can abstain from those sins,then they could abstain from other sins,but they are of the flesh,so they will act accordingly.

They sin because they like the sin,because of being in the flesh,but if they wanted to they could abstain from those sins,as other sins they do not like that they abstain from those sins.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

A person that hates sin,and does not want sin,but wants to choose the good,by the Spirit can abstain from sin,and will show the ways of the Spirit,which there are no ways of the flesh there at all,because it is all the Spirit's characteristics displayed if one is led of the Spirit.

That is how a person will display their lifestyle if they are led of the Spirit,and anytime we do not display those characteristics then we are not led of the Spirit.

When we sin we are not led of the Spirit,but led of the flesh at that time,for a Spirit led life does not sin,because it is not one of the characteristics of the Spirit,for there is no ways of the flesh displayed when one is led of the Spirit.

They can say they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,but if they hate sin,and do not want sin,by the Spirit they can abstain from sin.

But some act like they are led of the Spirit at all times,despite their lifesyle of doing sin,but if they were led of the Spirit at all times then there would be no ways of the flesh there.

So they can say they are always led of the Spirit,even when engaging in sin,but that is not true for a Spirit led life will not display any ways of the flesh.

Which they come across as if they can never waver in their relationship with God,not even for a millisecond,and will always be led of the Spirit,but if they sin they have wavered in their relationship with God,for they were not led of the Spirit,and they cannot say they are when they sin,because a Spirit led life can never show the ways of the flesh.

That means even though they say they are always led of the Spirit,they actually can fluctuate between being right with God,and not being right with God,if they sin and repent,go for a while sin and repent,but some hold unto sin which is a dangerous position to be in.

There is no excuse for why we cannot abstain from sin,because we can have the Spirit,,and then be spiritual,and not fleshy like the world who like the ways of the flesh,for how can a person say they are led of the Spirit,and spiritual,and love the ways of the flesh.

They are sinning on purpose,not trying to abstain from sin,and then say they cannot abstain from sin,as though someone twisted their arm,and made them sin against they will.

I wonder who is making these people sin against their will,when they are trying so hard not to sin.

Is it mother nature,is it anti-karma,who is it,we have to know so we can shut the culprit down who is making these people sin against their will,and that is why they cannot abstain from sin.

There is no excuse,and even the world can abstain from sin,and the saints can abstain from sin by the Spirit if they do not want sin,for the intensity of the temptation is lessened in the saint,than those of the world.

And someone is going to tell me that the God who is the greatest of all time,highly intelligent that we cannot even comprehend,and His ways are higher than our ways,and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts,as the heavens are higher than the earth,that He is going to say that it is alright for the saints to sin and still be right with Him,when they can abstain from sins by the Holy Spirit.

If we can abstain from sins if we want,and much more if we are led of the Spirit,then God is going to require us not to sin if it is possible not to sin by the Spirit.

God is highly intelligent,and He is not going to say it is alright for the saints to sin,and be right with Him,if the power is there by the Holy Spirit to cause them not to sin.

They sin because they want to sin,not because they cannot abstain from sin,and you cannot pull the wool over God's eyes and convince Him that despite your best efforts you cannot abstain from sin.

The Bible says the Lord knows those that are His having this SEAL,let those that name the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

So they can say they are always led of the Spirit despite sinning,because they do not believe that even for a millisecond their relationship with God can lack,but when they are sinning,they are not led of the Spirit because there is not ways of the flesh there.

But with their beliefs many hold unto sin,and do not get rid of those sins thinking they are alright,but we can have the Spirit so there is no excuse,and the God who is highly intelligent knows there is no excuse,so then He would require us not to sin,because it is possible,for why would He say it is alright to sin and be right with Him,if we can have the Spirit and not sin.

Therefore if they sin they are being rebellious,and sinning on purpose,for they are denying the power of the Holy Spirit because they enjoy sin,and want to sin,but then have an excuse it does not affect their relationship with God.

You cannot pull the wool over God's eyes.

 

[Ahwatukee]

what happen If one accept Jesus and die the next second.

"One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!”

But the other one rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same judgment? We are punished justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our actions. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”

And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

One of the men who was crucified with Christ, who had a change of heart, and who could not come down from his cross to be baptized, nor do any works, was saved and obtained eternal life by pure faith.

 

[Jackson123]

"One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!”

But the other one rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same judgment? We are punished justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our actions. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”

And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

One of the men who was crucified with Christ, who had a change of heart, and who could not come down from his cross to be baptized, nor do any works, was saved and obtained eternal life by pure faith.

Are you going to say salvation by faith alone? And not by work?

I believe this is what Paul say. Than, some people believe one must circumcise like jews to be save.

Now, catholic seem to say, ritual baptism, communion etc, adventis say must be sabbath keeper.

Matt 25 say salvation is for those that Love the needy.

If we look at from the whole picture, matt 25 is fruit of real faith, in general. The thieft in the cross, never feed Jesus, or invite Jesus in when Jesus stranger. But he Had a faith in Jesus.


,

 

[Jackson123]

Why James say faith without work is death?

ithe background of that teaching is If the rich come to the church, people weicome them, If the poor come, No body welcome them. This is not real faith.

Real faith is not what you say, Oh I love Jesus, and cry to look like sincer.

that why Jame Said show me your faith without work and I Will show my faith with work

He not say you do not need faith for salvation, but like Jesus say If a branch abide in Vine It Will bear fruit. Branch can not bear fruit of itself. How we going to say salvation by our work? When we can not produce agape work of ourself

salvation is by faith, and real faith produce agape work.


James 2
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b]works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[JIMBO43]

Originally Posted by JIMBO43
he sent his son so you may have a chance of eternal life and a hope of expectation to as dc puts it..

Yes, that is what my faith is in, what's yours in?

hangon what has been all the argument about then if you say your faith is the same as mine...


In your faith do you realise as long as you stay faithfull to God,,,,,,,,,God will stay faithfull to you ?...


And in your faith do You realise if you turn that of the way of satan on your own merrits that you can fall out of favor with God and be banished from his Kingdom for ever more. ?

And in your faith do you realise That,,,,, seeing as angels with super entrusted powers can be banished from the kingdom then so can the so called done deal..

 

[Ahwatukee]

Are you going to say salvation by faith alone? And not by work?

Yes, we are saved by believing in Christ and afterwards faith produces fruit of the Spirit and a zealousness to do good works. Fruits and good works come as are result of faith. If we trust in our works for salvation, then we are not trusting in Christ who provided salvation for us by the shedding of His blood.

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. "

 

[JIMBO43]

He not say you do not need faith for salvation, but like Jesus say If a branch abide in Vine It Will bear fruit. Branch can not bear fruit of itself. How we going to say salvation by our work? When we can not produce agape work of ourself

salvation is by faith, and real faith produce agape work.

John 15:1-16English Standard Version (ESV)

I Am the True Vine

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch (believer) in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes,


faith is a two way exchange,,, you have faith in me and i have faith in you.... break it and we go our seperate ways or we go to war. its allway one or the other.. we go our seperate ways for a while and somehow you or i realise we where wrong.. on the flip side you dont and rule with your own faith which is not of God..

 

[JIMBO43]

Yes, we are saved by believing in Christ and afterwards faith produces fruit of the Spirit and a zealousness to do good works. Fruits and good works come as are result of faith. If we trust in our works for salvation, then we are not trusting in Christ who provided salvation for us by the shedding of His blood.

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. "

would that be the same for everyone ???? i mean will everyone bare there own fruit ?

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, we are saved by believing in Christ and afterwards faith produces fruit of the Spirit and a zealousness to do good works. Fruits and good works come as are result of faith. If we trust in our works for salvation, then we are not trusting in Christ who provided salvation for us by the shedding of His blood.

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. "

yup, No one able to produce agape love of itself. If salvation by our work, than No body save

 

[Jackson123]

John 15:1-16English Standard Version (ESV)

I Am the True Vine

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch (believer) in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes,


faith is a two way exchange,,, you have faith in me and i have faith in you.... break it and we go our seperate ways or we go to war. its allway one or the other.. we go our seperate ways for a while and somehow you or i realise we where wrong.. on the flip side you dont and rule with your own faith which is not of God..

yep, faith is the way of salvation

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why James say faith without work is death?

A good example of faith without works would be the Levite and the priest as demonstrated below:

===========================================================

“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead.

Now by chance a priest was going down the same road, but when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

So too, when a Levite came to that spot and saw him, he passed by on the other side.

But when a Samaritan on a journey came upon him, he looked at him and had compassion. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Take care of him,’ he said, ‘and on my return I will repay you for any additional expense.’

=====================================================================

Another good example, would be the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19-31

 

[Ahwatukee]

would that be the same for everyone ???? i mean will everyone bare there own fruit ?

Hi Jimbo43,

When we receive Christ, the Holy Spirit takes up residency in us. As we continue in faith we are taking on the characteristics of Christ, which is the fruit of the Spirit, God's nature. Every true believer in Christ is producing fruit, some a hundred fold, some sixty and some thirty. We all have different levels of fruitfulness.

 

[JIMBO43]

Yes, we are saved by believing in Christ and afterwards faith produces fruit of the Spirit and a zealousness to do good works. Fruits and good works come as are result of faith. If we trust in our works for salvation, then we are not trusting in Christ who provided salvation for us by the shedding of His blood.

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. "

would that be the same for everyone ???? i mean will everyone bare there own fruit ?

 

[Jackson123]

Apostle John teach in his version same with Jesus and James

1 John 4:20
If a man say, “I love God,” and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

If a man declare love God but hate his brother, he is liar.

if a man declare have faith but hate the poor, he is liar (James)

if a branch abide in vine It Will bear fruit,
in other word, If a branch say I abide in vine but not produce an agape fruit, he is a liar

 

[JIMBO43]

[SUP]john 15:10
10 [/SUP]If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love,(and youll bare fruits) just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

 

[Jackson123]

would that be the same for everyone ???? i mean will everyone bare there own fruit ?

I believe Jesus is the producer, branch only the distributor. And basically the fruit of Holy Spirit is same, It is agape love

 

[Ahwatukee]

[SUP]john 15:10
10 [/SUP]If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love,(and youll bare fruits) just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

"Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:21