Not By Works

[Ariel82]

well, that's why i made pie. lol
after all that has gone on in the thread, i thought a break might be welcome.

banana cream or blueberry peach?

Both, will eat the blueberry and throw the other at Dcon.....lol.

 

[BillG]

Spiritual age huh?....hmmmm.....

troll....

No he is not I troll.

 

[dcontroversal]

It appears everyone is saying the same thing, but let's make sure.

Here's how I see it:

1. Christ alone saves.
2. We die to the law.
3. We are reborn in Christ.
4. We are a new creation in Christ.
5. This new creation does the will of God naturally.
6. Sometimes the flesh tries to intervene.
7. We get to choose to follow flesh or Spirit, renewing of the mind.
8. As we follow Spirit we see fruit, James calls them works.
9. We see and reveal fruit/works, but only faith saves.
10. Apart from Christ we can do NOTHING, so we abide in the Vine and HIS fruit is grown through us.

We can see what a person truly believes by their gospel message.

If we say, Christ alone saves, this is what we believe.

If we say, Christ alone saves, but you better have works, we don't truly believe in the power of Christ to save and produce works. Remember the good works were prepared BEFORE us. He knows what He's doing, we don't need to add on to the gospel message, but we do need discipleship after salvation. He commands us of this.

Please note: Before Christ, we need Christ. After Christ, we need to grow up in Christ. This "growing" up process is called discipleship, maturity, and growing in the knowledge of the Lord several times in Scripture. It is this process that takes us from "fleshly/carnal minded" babes in Christ into mature believers lead by the Spirit.

Amen Cee....and will add...

Faithful produces works of Gold, Silver and Precious Stones...

How would one describe a believer who has works of wood, hay and stubble that get burnt to a crisp yet they are still saved yet so as by fire.......?

UNFAITHFUL would be the word I would use......

How many works are needed to identify a believer......Hebrews 11 seems clear....MANY only had 1 (one) listed that proved their faith, some had more....and yet the bible makes it clear that NOT all of the saved will walk a fully faithful life constantly producing....EVEN nature itself which speaks PROVES this....

A apple tree is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts....it takes years of growth and maturity to produce...sometimes a single apple, sometimes an abundance and even after producing it may experience drought or a late frost and PRODUCE NOTHING that year...yet is still an apple tree.....the point is obvious........!

 

[notmyown]

Both, will eat the blueberry and throw the other at Dcon.....lol.

don't you dare throw my pie. i made that vanilla cream from scratch.

sigh. not by works and salvation is of the Lord, why are you so hard to understand?

 

[Ariel82]

It appears everyone is saying the same thing, but let's make sure.

Here's how I see it:

1. Christ alone saves.
2. We die to the law.
3. We are reborn in Christ.
4. We are a new creation in Christ.
5. This new creation does the will of God naturally.
6. Sometimes the flesh tries to intervene.
7. We get to choose to follow flesh or Spirit, renewing of the mind.
8. As we follow Spirit we see fruit, James calls them works.
9. We see and reveal fruit/works, but only faith saves.
10. Apart from Christ we can do NOTHING, so we abide in the Vine and HIS fruit is grown through us.

We can see what a person truly believes by their gospel message.

If we say, Christ alone saves, this is what we believe.

If we say, Christ alone saves, but you better have works, we don't truly believe in the power of Christ to save and produce works. Remember the good works were prepared BEFORE us. He knows what He's doing, we don't need to add on to the gospel message, but we do need discipleship after salvation. He commands us of this.

Please note: Before Christ, we need Christ. After Christ, we need to grow up in Christ. This "growing" up process is called discipleship, maturity, and growing in the knowledge of the Lord several times in Scripture. It is this process that takes us from "fleshly/carnal minded" babes in Christ into mature believers lead by the Spirit.

I agree with most but believe works and fruit are two different concepts,

Fruit is created by God's work in our lives.

Works are created by our eforts and love into others lives by God's holy spirit leading.

 

[Cee]

Thank you for responding, I'm open to a discussion of comparing the passages that discuss the fruit of the Spirit and the works listed in James to identify any differences.

I personally believe the fruit of the Spirit is what produces the works. It is self-control, faithfulness, and love that all produce a lot of the works identified in James, but I'm open to discussion.

I agree with most but believe works and fruit are two different concepts,

Fruit is created by God's work in our lives.

Works are created by our eforts and love into others lives by God's holy spirit leading.

 

[PHart]

Not a single poster believes that works are not part of their walk...

What we see here, depending on how they feel at the moment, lol, are people saying you do not have to have the evidence of works on the day of Judgment to be saved. dcon uses 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 to prove that. Though he then turns right around and says all saved people have works.

Then you have 777 who is a H-gracer. He has said that you can even go back to unbelief and you will still be saved on the Day of Judgement. And I think he may have also have said that all saved people will have works.

Perhaps they will argue vehemently that they never said these things, and that is their right. That's how forums work, lol. And round it round it goes. That's why I'm not here to convince the people actually posting here. I'm here for the unseen lurker who won't log in and participate but who is reading about this subject out of a genuine Holy Spirit inspired search for the truth.

dcon, 777.....dont' take it personally. I'm not holding a grudge against you guys. I can disagree with you, and even not like your duplicity, but I will not hold a grudge against you. Nor you either, Meggido.

 

[dcontroversal]

Both, will eat the blueberry and throw the other at Dcon.....lol.

WHAT the........... HAHAHA I like banana cream pie......especially still hot HHAHAH with the whip cream melting on top and maybe a slice of vanilla bean ice cream.......careful....I might have to "WORK" to make one.....unlike salvation which is a FREE GIFT.....

 

[BillG]

don't you dare throw my pie. i made that vanilla cream from scratch.

sigh. not by works and salvation is of the Lord, why are you so hard to understand?

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aHY5SM0YFv0[/video]

 

[Cee]

Now I'm going to challenge my own theological thought process because this Scripture just came to my mind and I want to be intellectually honest. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this Scripture.

Here's why: We say we don't need to discuss with people they need works to be saved, which I do agree with, but Jesus says that people need to "count the cost" before they come to Him. I'd love to hear some view points on this one.

Luke 14:26-33 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple"

It appears Jesus is saying don't come to Him unless you're willing to forsake everything. That does feel very works centered at first glance. I suppose a better word for it though is submission centered. We are calling Him Lord of our life. And that means we forsake our own lordship over our life for His. Still chewing on this myself.

 

[PHart]

I personally believe the fruit of the Spirit is what produces the works. It is self-control, faithfulness, and love that all produce a lot of the works identified in James...

That is exactly it.
Saved people do works because they have the Spirit of God in them in the form of patience, kindness, love, etc.

It is this very understanding that finally set me free only being able to understand works in salvation as the attempt to justify oneself--the very problem many in this forum are having. Instead of asking themselves how it is that I can and should have works attached to my salvation in order to be saved on the day of Judgment without me trying to earn my salvation by those works they have decided that those works simply are not required in salvation.

 

[Ariel82]

Now I'm going to challenge my own theological thought process because this Scripture just came to my mind and I want to be intellectually honest. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this Scripture.

Here's why: We say we don't need to discuss with people they need works to be saved, which I do agree with, but Jesus says that people need to "count the cost" before they come to Him. I'd love to hear some view points on this one.

Luke 14:26-33 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple"

It appears Jesus is saying don't come to Him unless you're willing to forsake everything. That does feel very works centered at first glance. I suppose a better word for it though is submission centered. We are calling Him Lord of our life. And that means we forsake our own lordship over our life for His. Still chewing on this myself.

Interesting question...

I would pose another...,since Peter almost drowned trying to walk on water...should he never have stepped into the water?

Sometimes we can only see as far as the next step...we don't know all the cost...but are we willing to let die anything that wars against God and His wisdom?

 

[Cee]

I totally hear where you're coming from. That's why I wanted to get us all on the same page together.

I think the idea you're presenting is, "Salvation produces works."

Now some could say, they might be very little works, but some sort of works will be seen as a result of being a new creation in Christ. I will say this, we do know there is a process of growing up in Christ because most of the NT was written to believers about not sinning. That means it isn't just a *poof* thing, Paul had to continually write to and remind believers how to follow Christ. So we see that there is a process just in the existence of Scripture itself.

C.

That is exactly it.
Saved people do works because they have the Spirit of God in them in the form of patience, kindness, love, etc.

It is this very understanding that finally set me free only being able to understand works in salvation as the attempt to justify oneself--the very problem many in this forum are having. Instead of asking themselves how it is that I can and should have works attached to my salvation in order to be saved on the day of Judgment without me trying to earn my salvation by those works they have decided that those works simply are not required in salvation.

 

[Cee]

I would say yes because the Lord told Him to come.

Interesting question...

I would pose another...,since Peter almost drowned trying to walk on water...should he never have stepped into the water?

Sometimes we can only see as far as the next step...we don't know all the cost...but are we willing to let die anything that wars against God and His wisdom?

 

[Ariel82]

No....what is missing is the concept...

I am saved. I am a beloved child of God.

Now because of the love God has poured into my heart, I will now pour it into the lives around me. How can I glorify God today?

The focus is not works or earning salvation but pure and good worship of God and sharing God's love with others.

 

[UnderGrace]

This is the problem right here,

in order to be saved on the day of Judgment

so you are saying works are necessary for salvation?

That is exactly it.
Saved people do works because they have the Spirit of God in them in the form of patience, kindness, love, etc.

It is this very understanding that finally set me free only being able to understand works in salvation as the attempt to justify oneself--the very problem many in this forum are having. Instead of asking themselves how it is that I can and should have works attached to my salvation in order to be saved on the day of Judgment without me trying to earn my salvation by those works they have decided that those works simply are not required in salvation.

 

[Gabriel2020]

You have works of darkness and works of righteousness. this is not physical work with the body but spiritual work in your soul. Faith atomatically produce work. physical and spiritual. Things that are seen are manifested by things unseen. The works are the obedience to God as Abraham was when he took Isaac to the altar for a sacrifice without any questions. That is faith with works. He could have said to God, I believe what you say ,but I won't sacrifice my son. That would be faith without works which is disobedience .

 

[FranC]

you do understand that by admitting to this, you are now in violation of the terms of service of this chat board and can and probably should be reported for making the chat board your private perosnal pulpit?

Hi Meggido,

I'm sorry to intrude, but calm down already!!

I know you well enough to know that there's some misunderstanding here.

Violation of service: I have OFTEN said that I posted here for those reading along. I knew I could never convince Dcon or UnderGrace or EG of anything I said. BUT, if they're going to post their beliefs, which are not really biblical if we want to be honest, then I ALSO want to make the other side known.

So no breaking of TOS. This is not a private pulpit. It's a public forum and there ARE many reading along.

As far as works. I pretty much agree with PHart.

I don't understand why WORKS has become such a bad word. And I know you pretty much agree with me.

WORKS DO NOT SAVE US.

We are justified by faith alone. We're all good on this after 1,000 pages and over 20,000 posts, of which I GOT no. 20,000 !!

BUT, now what?

DO WE WORK OR DO WE NOT WORK?

I've been trying to make this easy but no go for me...

IF we say that we work, What's the difference WHY we work?

We're ALEADY SAVED. So we certainly are NOT doing works to be saved.

But JESUS said we are to follow in His lead.
He said He does the works of the Father...

John 10:37-38 are interesting verses.

Jesus is speaking to the Jews about how He is the Son of God and blaspheming.

He says...

"IF I DO NOT DO THE WORKS OF THE FATHER, DO NOT BELIEVE ME".
verse 37


"BUT IF I DO THEM, THOUGH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME, BELIEVE THE WORKS, THAT YOU MAY KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THAT THE FATHER IS IN ME AND I IN THE FATHER".
verse 38



We can also apply this rule to ourselves. We are, after all, disciples of Jesus and what He did we are also to emmulate.


IF we DO NOT do the works Jesus commanded us to do, if means we DO NOT BELIEVE HIM. (verse 37)

BUT if we DO THE WORKS, those who may not believe in Jesus WILL BELIEVE IN THE WORKS THEY SEE.
So all will know and understand that Jesus is in us, and we are in Jesus. (verse 38)

Our works should be an Honor to do.
Jesus said we are to do them. He did not REQUEST this, He DEMANDED THIS.


John 8:31
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples."

Jesus is speaking to His disciples above.
He tells them that IF they hold,or abide in, or keep believing in, HIS TEACHINGS, then they are REALLY His disciples.

What are Jeus' teachings?
What is a disciple?
What does it mean to abide?

Jesus' teachings can be found all through the gospels and in Acts and in John's writings.
We can talk about these. I like to mention the Beatitudes in Mathew 5:3-10 and Mathew 25:33-46

In Mathew 25:46 Jesus HIMSELF says that those who did not do His works will go to eternal punishment.
and in Mathew 25:34 to those who did the works, He says to go into the Kingdom which was prepared for them from the beginning of the world.

A disciple is a follower or ADHERENT of any teacher. In this case, Jesus is the teacher and we are His followers.
If we want to follow Him and be an adherent, we MUST do as He taught.

To abide means to be IN, to LIVE WITH, To stay, To dwell, to CONTINUE TO STAY.


I really fail to see why we fight works so much.
We are saved by grace -- God's love for His creatures.
God is a Holy and Pure God and has ALWAYS demanded obedience.

Has He changed??


cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

a•bide (əˈbaɪd)

v. a•bode a•bid•ed, a•bid•ing. v.i.
1. to remain; stay: Abide with me.
2. to have one's abode; dwell; reside.
3. to continue in a particular condition; last; endure.
v.t.
4. to put up with; tolerate; stand: I can't abide dishonesty!
5. to endure or withstand without yielding: to abide a vigorous onslaught.
6. to wait for; await: to abide the coming of the Lord.
7. to accept without opposition or question: to abide the verdict of the judge.
8. abide by,
a. to comply with; submit to: to abide by the court's decision.
b. to remain faithful to; keep: to abide by a promise.

 

[FranC]

True faith will produce works, I honestly think it's that simple.

You DO NOT think it's that simple...

Or you wouldn't be arguing with works...

You'd just be saying:

YES. LET'S WORK SINCE JESUS ASKED US TO...


THAT would be simple....

 

[FranC]

I suppose if one is blind to the truth they would like and think a set of verses twisted out of context to make it equate to individual salvation (when it does not) would be comparable to a piece of cake....again.....you better wake up to the truth Fran....equating the collective work and authority of a church to individual salvation is the kind of fallacy that can be eternally lethal!

BUT THIS is what I WAS TRYING TO TELL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus is ALWAYS speaking to PERSONAL salvation.

The Church at Ephesus might have not been preaching with spirit anymore,
but JESUS WAS CONCERNED for person's PERSONAL SALVATION.

The CHURCH does not get saved as a Whole!