Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

Depending on where we are in faith...might define works differently Bill.

Not sure though. Would like Meggido or Grace to address this. I know what I believe works are but might not be what others think.

Do you have a definition of works Bill?

 

[PHart]

Sorry PHart......works to keep is works to get.......and still waiting for those who believe works to get or keep to explain the difference between the works found in believers....and HOW many are required to gain, keep or maintain....

Faithful believers--->works of gold, silver and precious stones
______ believers--->works of wood, hay and stubble

YET both equally saved......so....how do you describe those saved believers who have works of wood, hay and stubble?
How many works are required to gain, keep or maintain salvation..1, 2, 20, 500 .......?

Did you miss my post about this?
I can repost it if you want me to.

 

[PeterJens]

Is saving faith?

I agree with your overview of summaries.
My addition would be many feel they have been in church, thought they were solid and suddenly
had their lives shattered. This shattering leaves its mark, and they feel betrayed by the promises
and approach they had before.

This is the problem of emotional realities and how we found our lives on many things we are not
aware of, that can appear more fundamental than our faith in Christ.

I have friends who where shattered, and walked away, because something became between them
and the Lord. One came back, because he came to see his rebellion and demands where pointless
and founded on this world and not the next.

In truth my heart goes out to those who found just living by a formula ends up empty.

My heart has rested on Christ, and he has remade me. I cannot deny His work, to deny the glories
of His gospel of truth. And it is a gate with a way. It is also a gift which I am called to honour.

 

[stonesoffire]

Mr. Hart, did you say what works are?

 

[PennEd]

[/B][/COLOR]It's called 'Hypergrace'. It's sweeping through the church at this present time.
Everyone in this forum who says a believer is so irretrievably saved that even their return to unbelief and the life of sin that goes with it can not cause them to forfeit the eternal life they received when they first believed is a Hypergracer.

You are aware that '777' is Hypergrace, didn't you? I mean, depending on the particular post he is in. Sometimes he's Calvy, other times he's Hypergrace.

This is a troubling post. It belies a Spiritual blindness. There should be real concern for this person and others that believe as he does.

We are God's Children by BIRTH if we have been born again. A son doesn't TRY and be his parents child, HE IS BY BIRTH!

If you have not been born again you are already condemned. If you HAVE been born again, then YOU are His Child, and eternal life starts the moment you are Spiritually born again.

And He will fill you with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will transform you into the likeness of His Son, Jesus Christ. We don't WANT to disappoint our heavenly Father, and if we grieve Him, we will not only be unjoyful, but also an ineffective witness to His Gospel.

Now a child doesn't ALWAYS obey. And there are consequences for not obeying. ONE of those consequences WILL NOT BE that you are no longer His Child!!
I don't believe this simple truth can be understood without revelation from the Holy Spirit. Please pray for the Lord to search you, and if something is not right, humble yourself and ask Him to reveal His Truth.

May God Bless you in your search!

 

[Meggido]

I see your point Meggido...but am not sure that is the problem. I do agree that it's both ours and His.

My thought is it's about what kind of works are being spoken of, and nobody wants to define what they are.

I would like DCON and EG to define that for us....

 

[dcontroversal]

I see your point Meggido...but am not sure that is the problem. I do agree that it's both ours and His.

My thought is it's about what kind of works are being spoken of, and nobody wants to define what they are.

I think it is rather clear....

Jesus is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our faith and he said he will COMPLETE that GOOD work he began in us....end of story....if one believes they can fall away to the point of losing salvation then BOTH the statements in bold are false...the ORIGIN of faith IS GOD...he is the SOURCE of ALL things SPIRITUAL.....

 

[stonesoffire]

So you would say that the works we do are simply the outcome of growing up in the House of God as a Son PennEd?

Because that is how I view works. I would say it's works of the Spirit and still not of the natural man. The Spiritual man maturing.

 

[stonesoffire]

I think it is rather clear....

Jesus is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our faith and he said he will COMPLETE that GOOD work he began in us....end of story....if one believes they can fall away to the point of losing salvation then BOTH the statements in bold are false...the ORIGIN of faith IS GOD...he is the SOURCE of ALL things SPIRITUAL.....

I think we are saying the same thing Dcon...just different words.

 

[stonesoffire]

I would like DCON and EG to define that for us....

Just saw this Meggido...sorry.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by PHart

[/B][/COLOR]It's called 'Hypergrace'. It's sweeping through the church at this present time.
Everyone in this forum who says a believer is so irretrievably saved that even their return to unbelief and the life of sin that goes with it can not cause them to forfeit the eternal life they received when they first believed is a Hypergracer.

You are aware that '777' is Hypergrace, didn't you? I mean, depending on the particular post he is in. Sometimes he's Calvy, other times he's Hypergrace.

This is a troubling post. It belies a Spiritual blindness. There should be real concern for this person and others that believe as he does.

We are God's Children by BIRTH if we have been born again. A son doesn't TRY and be his parents child, HE IS BY BIRTH!

If you have not been born again you are already condemned. If you HAVE been born again, then YOU are His Child, and eternal life starts the moment you are Spiritually born again.

And He will fill you with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will transform you into the likeness of His Son, Jesus Christ. We don't WANT to disappoint our heavenly Father, and if we grieve Him, we will not only be unjoyful, but also an ineffective witness to His Gospel.

Now a child doesn't ALWAYS obey. And there are consequences for not obeying. ONE of those consequences WILL NOT BE that you are no longer His Child!!
I don't believe this simple truth can be understood without revelation from the Holy Spirit. Please pray for the Lord to search you, and if something is not right, humble yourself and ask Him to reveal His Truth.

May God Bless you in your search!

Well said. A son is still a son and it's from birth - not from the work you do to make yourself a son or to keep yourself a son. That's called a "religion" of self-works and self-righteousness.

There are consequences to living after the flesh as I and many others have posted about and that there warning scriptures are to be heeded if we want to experience His life while in this earth.

The sign of religion as seen in Jesus' interaction with the Pharisees - is that they start to attack the person. You expose someone's religion for what it truly is and the "fur will fly". It's just the flesh acting up so it's to be ignored.

All is well...The Lord will be faithful to all of us and reveal His truth to all of us....

 

[PeterJens]

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2 Tim 3:16

We are called to train in walking righteously.
Now think a little on this. It takes effort, working through things, in discipline,
application, repentance, confession and abiding in Christ.

Now if our righteousness was just Jesus's righteousness there would be no training.

If our walk is just Jesus, there would be no correction or warning of walking in the flesh
leads to death, but the Spirit to life.

Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Tim 4:16

Watch yourself, watch the teaching, because if you do, you save yourself and your
hearers.

Wait???? Save yourself ????? But we are already saved, there is no doubt?
So here is Paul saying, listen, walk, know we are saints saved by grace if we hold to
the faith, so learn how to walk well.

 

[Meggido]

So you would say that the works we do are simply the outcome of growing up in the House of God as a Son PennEd?

Because that is how I view works. I would say it's works of the Spirit and still not of the natural man. The Spiritual man maturing.

The greatest commandment Jesus ever gave about works is this:

GO & MAKE.....

I do not see a lot of disciple making these days....this is what bearing fruit is all about...making disciples...the gifts, the grace everything given to us, should be used to GO & MAKE....

When Jesus said you will know them by their fruit...he was not talking about if personal Fruit of the Spirit are manifesting or not....he was saying you will now them by the disciples they are making....

The only works there are....is GO & MAKE.....

All we see today is:

GO & MAKE.....mega churches

GO & MAKE.....personal 1 man ministries

GO & MAKE.....volunteers

GO & MAKE.....revivals

GO & MAKE.....methods and programs

GO & MAKE.....connect groups/small groups<<<<<<<<<<which rarely have zero to do with intentional, deliberate Jesus teaching discipleship

GO & MAKE.....3 services and live/recorded video feeds of the service to small campus theaters....

Worse we see:

GO & TAKE.....

GO & GET.....

GO & GRAB.....

GO & GIVE.....

GO & PLANT.....

GO & DEBATE, ARGUE, DEFEND...

GO & SIT......

GO & STAGNATE.....

GO & IGNORE....

GO & BE APATHETIC....

If there are no disciples being made and they are not making disciples, we are not doing works unto Father, or bearing fruit and proving to father we are not the sons disciples....

The focus on the body is all about self.....not about dying to self, so that you bear much fruit[disciples]

 

[Grace777x70]

So you would say that the works we do are simply the outcome of growing up in the House of God as a Son PennEd?

Because that is how I view works. I would say it's works of the Spirit and still not of the natural man. The Spiritual man maturing.

Amen...

We "get" to do things with our Father and Lord because we are His children and Christ lives in and through us. It's His works that He has prepared for us to walk in with Him.

We are simply "participating" in the family business of telling people that God loves them dearly and that He has provided real life for them by His grace through faith in Christ alone.

A good work being led by the Spirit of God is to do things as prompted by the Spirit of God within us.

We don't do it "in order to keep ourselves saved" - nor if we didn't do it would our loving Father and Lord send us to hell and then into the lake of fire because of not doing "good works" - ( that is such an anti-Christ belief )

We do it because of the life of Christ within us is responding by the direction of the Holy Spirit and we get to participate in the family business of showing someone the love and grace of our loving Father and Lord have for them.

Resting in Christ's finished work is our obedience and of our faith in action and it is our spiritual warfare and it will manifest itself in good works originating from the Spirit of God within us.

 

[PeterJens]

The greatest commandment Jesus ever gave about works is this:

GO & MAKE.....

I do not see a lot of disciple making these days....this is what bearing fruit is all about...making disciples...the gifts, the grace everything given to us, should be used to GO & MAKE....

If the people in church are not disciples and are not being preached and taught scripture,
and life in Christ, they are incapable of making disciples, because they may have not become
them themselves.

And what do people who believe and walk in something the bible condemns in their hearts?
The create a version where they can stay as they are, believe they have arrived and pat
themselves on the back this is what Jesus intended allllllll along.

 

[Grace777x70]

There are different functions in the body of Christ. Not all of us have the same function.

For example - let's look at the classic "go and make disciples" scripture.

First thing we do is look at who is being spoken to. In this case it is the 11 disciples.

Matthew 28:16-19 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Jesus did not say this to the over 500 people that He appeared to after His resurrection - He said it only to His 11 disciples which were commissioned to do this function within the body of Christ in that time period. The Lord is still sending people out to do this very thing today.

No where do we see Paul or Peter in their epistles telling the general body of Christ in that local for everyone to do this - to "go and make disciples". There are people in the body of Christ commissioned and called of the Lord to do this.

Sometimes in the passion for our own calling - we want others to be doing it too but it can be a mistake.

To try to make everyone to do this same thing is mis-leading and it really causes a mess because we all have a part to play and we can't do it by doing someone else's calling.

We should be supporting and encouraging those that are commissioned by the Lord to " go and make disciples" - and they should be encouraging the others to do "their calling" as well by the power of the Lord working in and through us.

In saying that - I do agree with Mediggo that we can get our focus off Christ Himself and unto a show of external things.

But I wouldn't judge all churches to be in the same boat because they could have a different function. I'll let the Lord decide that.

 

[stonesoffire]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grace777x70 again.

Amen! Thank you!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My friend. I am not here to guarantee anything.
I do not work on guarantees, I work on knowing who I have trusted.

We know you do not, That's why your trying to keep your salvation by works.

Place your faith in God, he works on guarantees.. and your hope will be filled to completion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"it is obvious you do not know your bible"
"non sensical" "accusatory and judgmental" "Much like your own responses you give on a daily bases."
"If the words have no life, they are meaningless"

I am sorry, these words sadden me. Why?
It is like the people who have no faith, or push love aside, who want things their way or not at all.
And the words rather than being specific, they are meant to remove any sense of standing or empathy
between us.

But the problem is it does not work. All sinners know what it means to be a sinner. Only the redeemed
know what it means to walk righteously. So I know you and how you feel.

I asked a simple question, about abiding in Jesus's word. It appears you find it too hard to answer.
Because if you did dwell in His word you could no longer hold on to your position. The word washes our
minds and hearts, it points out areas of sin and places of praise and worship.

And the funniest thing for me, is you hate the idea I praise the living God and walk in His ways.
You need a heart of love, to love those who rejoice in God. As Peter says

No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
1 John 4:12

Now if you do not know this all embracing love, God lives in us. This is a promise.
So my friend and I hope brother in Christ, do you love the people of God? Do you love your enemies like
God loves His enemies?

Listen to Paul

For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline. So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.
2 Tim 1:7-9

God calls us to himself, in purity faith and holiness.

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Phil 4:4
[video=youtube;lKM-8CZRplI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKM-8CZRplI&amp;list=RDGMEMMib4QpREwENw3_jAc0YgNwVM8574yIi IX7I&amp;index=14[/video]

this dudes a trip, I do not know sometimes if I should laugh or cry,,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hope you will not take this the wrong way.
Do you not leap for joy because of Jesus and His work in your heart?

Because I do not feel this from your words.
You demonstrate the difference between us, to enter the dance of the King
in the heavenlies.

Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with timbrel and harp.
Psalm 149:3

it is obvious you do not know DC at all, or you would never ask such a thing.