Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

How does a plant grow with no root?
The parable explains that the problem was the shallowness of the soil in which the plant grew.

I meant grounded, sorry if I did not make that clear.

Plants grow without the root grounded all the time, If your root is grounded in something other than christ, it will not survive.

Jesus was showing all the possibilities, Only 1 possibility showed the true followers of Christ, the ones who's root went deep and was firmly entrenched.

If we play church (shallow root) but have no real faith in God, we will walk away when things get rough. Because our root is not firmly grounded in christ.

God demands real faith, Not a fake faith which has no foundation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I'm not saying that at all. It is more than strong enough.
The problem is the believer still has the freedom to choose not to use that power if he wants to willingly go back to his old life of unbelief and sin. I wish we were all robots that couldn't go back but that's just not the way it is.

The key word is IF.

No place can I find even a slight example of a person who was saved by being grounded in christ, Gone through all kinds of tribulation, Seen Gods wonderful work in all of that tribulation, Seen how when they do follow God in areas, their life is better. Wanting to go back to the chaos they had before they came to christ.

UNLESS they never experienced the above.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hopefully by now it's clear to all that no one here is teaching that works earn salvation.

Are you in the same forum? Qhite a few most definately are, In fact, I asked Stephen outright, if God gave us works, after saving us, and demanded we do them or else he will throw us back in, (unsave us)

And Stephen said yes

(then you attacked me, but I ignored your attack)

Fran says over and over, Works are required to maintain salvation, That is works based theology.

There are many many others.

Tomorrow morning when we wake up the obligation you and I have to fulfill in order to keep and maintain our righteous status with God....our salvation...is not an obligation to some set number of righteous works. Our obligation is to have faith, the faith that finds it's expression in godly love for others:

Galatians 5:6 NASB
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love.


See, Paul did not say the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is, or can be alone. He said the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that loves. The faith that justifies (all by itself without the help of works) is the faith that works.

IE, it is the faith that works, Not the faith that does no work.

so again we are back to the question, How much work prove faiht is real. and thus makes faith a saving faith, verses a dead faith?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think I can guarantee, these guys do not read the bible enough.
Let me think, 1 hour a day or 30 mins, or 10 mins, or 5 mins, or a verse?

You may read the bible, but it is obvious you do not know your bible.

The pharisee could quote word for word the whole of the OT, I guarantee they knew the bible better then you aver have, and most likely ever will.

They crucified christ. And the answers they gave when asked about God were non sensical, and usually accusatory and judgmental. Much like your own responses you give on a daily bases.

Maybe one day, You will stop being like them, and be like Saul, and nicodemus and a few others, and open your eyes to see what God really says, and not just read the words,

If the words have no life, they are meaningless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Easily more prevalent at this time in church history is the enemy planting tares who insist dead, works-less faith is the faith that can save you, too. The plantings that don't bear fruit are the tares. They only have the appearance of being a genuine fruit bearing stalk of wheat. But it is only the genuine stalks of wheat that produce the fruited head. Those kernels signifying that they really are stalks of wheat and not similar looking, but fruitless tares. And we know what Jesus said the outcome is of the tares, and what the outcome is of the wheat. But so many people are convinced the fruitless tares will be harvested and brought into the barn too.

who believes this?

The thought that a church teaches once one is saved, we can all drink eat and be merry, sleep with everyone, Not take care of the poor etc etc, is not found, it is all a fabrication made up by people who reject the faith alone salvation, and want to enforce a works based salvation.

it mostly comes from pride, And in fact, Most who teach it and profess it may be involved with many religious works, and traditions, but when it comes to doing the work of God, They have very little if any.

As you said, Many people can look like a believer and appear they are doing works, But we will find out in the end, it was all a game they plaid, Thinking they knew Christ, they will find out they found religion, but did not know Christ at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You cannot even guarantee your own salvation because the cross is not enough, much less guarantee anything about us....Petey, I suggest you stick with something that you ACTUALLY do know instead of guesses, supposition, accusation etc....

He has been told this by so many people. to stop trying to tell people what they believe, He will never listen, I think it is a game of his,, Maybe it makes him feel better? if so, it may be better for us to just let him continue so we do not hurt his feelings.

 

[dcontroversal]

who believes this?

The thought that a church teaches once one is saved, we can all drink eat and be merry, sleep with everyone, Not take care of the poor etc etc, is not found, it is all a fabrication made up by people who reject the faith alone salvation, and want to enforce a works based salvation.

it mostly comes from pride, And in fact, Most who teach it and profess it may be involved with many religious works, and traditions, but when it comes to doing the work of God, They have very little if any.

As you said, Many people can look like a believer and appear they are doing works, But we will find out in the end, it was all a game they plaid, Thinking they knew Christ, they will find out they found religion, but did not know Christ at all.

Yeah no doubt....I have seen NO one push this....how many times have we said that it is faith alone that saves ETERNALLY and that a genuine saved child of God will bear fruit and or works after a period of growth and maturity....AGAIN I will emphasize that EVEN a SINGLE CUP of COLD water in the name of Christ or a disciple WILL NOT go unnoticed and or unrewarded....so.....how many works does it take......and lest we ALL forget......ONE WHO HAS BELIEVED on JESUS biblically have done the WORK of the FATHER....................!!!!

 

[PeterJens]

You cannot even guarantee your own salvation because the cross is not enough, much less guarantee anything about us....Petey, I suggest you stick with something that you ACTUALLY do know instead of guesses, supposition, accusation etc....

My friend. I am not here to guarantee anything.
I do not work on guarantees, I work on knowing who I have trusted.
When you place your life in someones hands, like on a climbing wall and they are belaying
you, you do not get a guarantee ( my daughter dropped me 1ft off the ground, lol )
but you do trust them.

Or driving down a road, with on coming traffic. We trust they will stay on their side of
the road, no guarantees. And do you know why I trust Christ, because He died for me.
And it is this love that changed my heart, and I would die for Him. When I was 18 I left
my home to go on an adventure, and the Lord brought me through riots, civil wars, terrorist
bombs, storms, depression, isolation out the other side into His glorious victory and love.

Now why would I do this if I did not trust my saviour.
So my friend, I was asking you, man to man, how well do you know this book of life you
quote and its author? It is a living book that echoes your heart. What do you see in it,
or is it a place you find condemnation rather than life?

My heart warms in praise and thanks to the King, I glory in the fellowship of His people.
And He is teaching me to speak forth this faith, this praise and thanksgiving, because in
Him there is no end. Halleluyah.

 

[dcontroversal]

My friend. I am not here to guarantee anything.
I do not work on guarantees, I work on knowing who I have trusted.
When you place your life in someones hands, like on a climbing wall and they are belaying
you, you do not get a guarantee ( my daughter dropped me 1ft off the ground, lol )
but you do trust them.

Or driving down a road, with on coming traffic. We trust they will stay on their side of
the road, no guarantees. And do you know why I trust Christ, because He died for me.
And it is this love that changed my heart, and I would die for Him. When I was 18 I left
my home to go on an adventure, and the Lord brought me through riots, civil wars, terrorist
bombs, storms, depression, isolation out the other side into His glorious victory and love.

Now why would I do this if I did not trust my saviour.
So my friend, I was asking you, man to man, how well do you know this book of life you
quote and its author? It is a living book that echoes your heart. What do you see in it,
or is it a place you find condemnation rather than life?

My heart warms in praise and thanks to the King, I glory in the fellowship of His people.
And He is teaching me to speak forth this faith, this praise and thanksgiving, because in
Him there is no end. Halleluyah.

Well....the biblical definition of HOPE is the confident expectation of something GUARANTEED.....SALVATION and eternal LIFE are guaranteed in Christ......by your bolded above it must suck to not have a sure hope or foundation in JESUS who GUARANTEES and POMISES eternal life to ALL who acknowledge him by biblical faith......

 

[Meggido]

Because there are operatives paid to function on these sites to make believers with unsettled doctrine trip. Sad right?

Please list the chat names and verifiable proof people are engaged in this, including how they are getting paid and by whom....this is accusatory and sowing discord designed to isolate and destroy...Please prove the facts you have behind this accusation and who is doing it ....if you cannot, then you should take it back or face being reported to the mods for breaking fellowship and isolating people and making false allegations and accusations against ONLY those who disagree with your particular view.

One has to wonder if you are the one getting paid to marginalize and sow discord....

 

[PeterJens]

You may read the bible, but it is obvious you do not know your bible.

The pharisee could quote word for word the whole of the OT, I guarantee they knew the bible better then you aver have, and most likely ever will.

They crucified christ. And the answers they gave when asked about God were non sensical, and usually accusatory and judgmental. Much like your own responses you give on a daily bases.

Maybe one day, You will stop being like them, and be like Saul, and nicodemus and a few others, and open your eyes to see what God really says, and not just read the words,

If the words have no life, they are meaningless.

"it is obvious you do not know your bible"
"non sensical" "accusatory and judgmental" "Much like your own responses you give on a daily bases."
"If the words have no life, they are meaningless"

I am sorry, these words sadden me. Why?
It is like the people who have no faith, or push love aside, who want things their way or not at all.
And the words rather than being specific, they are meant to remove any sense of standing or empathy
between us.

But the problem is it does not work. All sinners know what it means to be a sinner. Only the redeemed
know what it means to walk righteously. So I know you and how you feel.

I asked a simple question, about abiding in Jesus's word. It appears you find it too hard to answer.
Because if you did dwell in His word you could no longer hold on to your position. The word washes our
minds and hearts, it points out areas of sin and places of praise and worship.

And the funniest thing for me, is you hate the idea I praise the living God and walk in His ways.
You need a heart of love, to love those who rejoice in God. As Peter says

No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
1 John 4:12

Now if you do not know this all embracing love, God lives in us. This is a promise.
So my friend and I hope brother in Christ, do you love the people of God? Do you love your enemies like
God loves His enemies?

Listen to Paul

For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline. So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.
2 Tim 1:7-9

God calls us to himself, in purity faith and holiness.

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Phil 4:4
[video=youtube;lKM-8CZRplI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKM-8CZRplI&list=RDGMEMMib4QpREwENw3_jAc0YgNwVM8574yIi IX7I&index=14[/video]

 

[PeterJens]

Well....the biblical definition of HOPE is the confident expectation of something GUARANTEED.....SALVATION and eternal LIFE are guaranteed in Christ......by your bolded above it must suck to not have a sure hope or foundation in JESUS who GUARANTEES and POMISES eternal life to ALL who acknowledge him by biblical faith......

dc - Maybe you are an emotional wreck, washed up and empty, clinging on to the raft of
life.

In Christ my heart is whole, renewed, rejoicing, praising uplifting His name.
I recounted to a socialist the stunning nature of Christs lead up to His death,
the fear of the disciples, how they ran away, to be shaken by Mary, saying Jesus
had risen, then filled with the Holy Spirit, lifted into the glorious heaven of praise
and worship and Stephen proclaiming the victory of the King before those who had
killed Him.

You do not feel this conviction, this fundamental power of overcoming, not a distant,
I have this promise, I have these words, but I know Christ is risen, He is God.

The works we can do, are just a praise offering to the King of Kings for the work He
has done in our hearts.

 

[Seohce]

.

TO ANSWER THEIR QUESTION REGARDING HOW MANY WORKS ARE NEEDED TO BE SAVED?

JESUS EXPLAINED IT SIMPLY THAT WE SHOULD DO EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE COMMANDED TO DO IF WE ARE REALLY IN HIM WHO LOVES THE FATHER. AND THE LOVE FOR GOD IS TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. AND HIS COMMANDMENT IS TO LOVE HIM AND HIS CHILDREN.(mat 7:12, 22:40, 1 john 5:2-3, deut 6:5)

John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I DO EXACTLY WHAT MY FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME. “Come now; let us leave.

Mark 12:30-31 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Romans 13:9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, LET US NOT LOVE WITH WORDS OR TONGUE but with ACTIONS and in TRUTH.

SOME WOULD SAY THAT THEY ALREADY POSSESS THEIR SALVATION AND THEY CANNOT LOSE IT.

IF THIS IS TRUE, THEY WILL NO LONGER FACE JUDGMENT THUS MAKING THE SCRIPTURE FALSE.

BUT NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE YOU CAN FIND A VERSE THAT STATES THAT THERE’LL BE PEOPLE EXEMPTED ON JUDGMENT DAY.

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that TO FACE JUDGMENT, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to BRING SALVATION to those who are WAITING for him.

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were JUDGED according to what THEY HAD DONE as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was JUDGED ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAD DONE.

Matthew 25:45-46 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, WHATEVER YOU DID NOT DO for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[dcontroversal]

dc - Maybe you are an emotional wreck, washed up and empty, clinging on to the raft of
life.

In Christ my heart is whole, renewed, rejoicing, praising uplifting His name.
I recounted to a socialist the stunning nature of Christs lead up to His death,
the fear of the disciples, how they ran away, to be shaken by Mary, saying Jesus
had risen, then filled with the Holy Spirit, lifted into the glorious heaven of praise
and worship and Stephen proclaiming the victory of the King before those who had
killed Him.

You do not feel this conviction, this fundamental power of overcoming, not a distant,
I have this promise, I have these words, but I know Christ is risen, He is God.

The works we can do, are just a praise offering to the King of Kings for the work He
has done in our hearts.

Or maybe I trust Jesus at his word and rest in the confident expectation of something guaranteed....that being eternal life based upon faith and grace.....yep, that's it....I trust Jesus and his promises.........

 

[PeterJens]

If they must then they you are saying they are necessary for salvation.
All you are doing is slipping in works via a back door.
You fail to understand that I can be saved and never do a good deed.

This statement is like saying every action we do is evil, and good deeds are alien
to us. That is a gnostic idea, that the flesh is totally evil and contaminates all we
do and think.

But Jesus is saying through repentance of all our sin, being made pure Holy, pure,
righteous, everything we do is a blessing and is within Gods will, it is almost impossible
for us not to do good things. They flow from us like the treasure that has been implanted
within.

The enemy wants us to say everything we do is still cursed and empty, but then he always
was the father of lies. Why do you if you know Jesus listen to Him?
God has given you His life and guidance to walk with Him, so walk.

 

[PeterJens]

Or maybe I trust Jesus at his word and rest in the confident expectation of something guaranteed....that being eternal life based upon faith and grace.....yep, that's it....I trust Jesus and his promises.........

I hope you will not take this the wrong way.
Do you not leap for joy because of Jesus and His work in your heart?

Because I do not feel this from your words.
You demonstrate the difference between us, to enter the dance of the King
in the heavenlies.

Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with timbrel and harp.
Psalm 149:3

 

[Meggido]

Is saving faith?


A.) The Personal faith of the individual receiving Christ?


B.) The Personal faith of Jesus he gives an individual who wants to receive him?


Gal 2.20:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


This ongoing war is based on how people define personal saving faith....I posted 2 different versions of Gal 2.20 above....

If you believe that you live in the flesh by the faith OF Jesus....you understand perfectly that personal saving faith was Jesus' own faith being gifted to you when convicted by the Holy Spirit of your need of a savior and that Jesus's own faith gifted to you, helps you see that Jesus Christ did and did alone and nothing you could ever do save you. It is then easy to state that you will cannot ever fall away, no matter what you do, because you believe that your personal saving faith is not your own, but Jesus own personal faith and he cannot deny himself.....you can state that grace covers you, and although you will not intentionally live like hell and frustrate the grace of God, his faith is all you need to live a passive christian life, that may or may not produce fruit or much fruit and it does not matter, because the reward and promise is made to all who believe. The passive work of Christ will perfect you and the seal of the Holy Spirit will keep you until the day of redemption and even the smallest sign of change will rewarded...

For those that do not believe this type of personal saving faith, it is quite easy for them to suggest these types of believers frustrate the grace of God and appear to be advocating they can live like hell and still make heaven.....


If you believe that you live in the flesh by faith IN Jesus....you understand perfectly that saving faith was your own faith being exercised when convicted by the Holy Spirit of your need of a savior and that your faith in what Jesus Christ did and did alone and nothing you could ever do or add tot he work saves you. You understand that the walk is both personal active and divine passive work, you do not do works to maintain salvation, you do good works because you abide. You understand that you are total new creation, you are not a sinner saved by grace, your a sin-forgiven saint that will still sin, but you are his workmanship created to do good works, to advance the kingdom, you believe to whom much as given, much is required....you do not labor in your own strength , you entered in his rest and work unto Father....and never to maintain your salvation...You understand the Holy Spirit has a ministry and he empowers and gives you life to do what God tells you to do...

For those that do not believe this type of perosnal saving faith, it is quite easy for them to suggest these types of believers frustrate the grace of God and appear to be advocating they have to do all sorts of works to maintain their salvation and cannot comprehend that personal growth in God is passive. They think you think these types of believers preach they are sinless and perfect and are nothing but self-righteous......any active thing they do to increase their relationship with God is viewed as works to maintain salvation....they believe they are fruit inspectors and suggest fruit is proof of salvation...


This is the ongoing war here....and it rages because people are not honest enough to admit how they define perosnal saving faith....

I believe the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith IN the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

If you disagree with me, fine...and then go to home depot, buy a ladder and get over it and maybe we can move onto maturity, if God lets us...

 

[PHart]

who believes this?

The thought that a church teaches once one is saved, we can all drink eat and be merry, sleep with everyone, Not take care of the poor etc etc, is not found...

It's called 'Hypergrace'. It's sweeping through the church at this present time.
Everyone in this forum who says a believer is so irretrievably saved that even their return to unbelief and the life of sin that goes with it can not cause them to forfeit the eternal life they received when they first believed is a Hypergracer.

You are aware that '777' is Hypergrace, didn't you? I mean, depending on the particular post he is in. Sometimes he's Calvy, other times he's Hypergrace.

 

[stonesoffire]

I see your point Meggido...but am not sure that is the problem. I do agree that it's both ours and His.

My thought is it's about what kind of works are being spoken of, and nobody wants to define what they are.

 

[BillG]

I see your point Meggido...but am not sure that is the problem. I do agree that it's both ours and His.

My thought is it's about what kind of works are being spoken of, and nobody wants to define what they are.

I have asked that many times myself.