Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit convict us? Jesus and God do..

do they convict, or do they rebuke, admonish or correct?

 

[PeterJens]

EG,
The Holy Spirit's conviction of Sin would never make a sinner feel unworthy of Father or condemned by Jesus, would he?....Are you saying that the Helper makes a person feel unworthy before Father and this is conviction?

AM I reading you wrong here? Just need a clarification, because I do not think this is what you are saying, and I may be reading it wrong.

Romans 2.4 says:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Proverbs 16.6 says:
By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for,
And by the fear of the Lord one keeps away from evil.

The Holy Spirit's conviction of SIN, overpowers a person with such an overwhelming flood of love, mercy and grace for their condition as a sinner and then reveals to a person how their SIN and self righteous efforts have made them fall short before a living God.

The Holy Spirit uses his own fruit of the spirit to call to sinners and never would make one feel unworthy before God, he would reveal the condition, not make anyone feel unworthy, condemned or anything else.


These College kids do not feel unworthy because of the Holy Spirit conviction, they feel unworthy because of religious spirits in the church today.

This all sounds fine except the last line

"they feel unworthy because of religious spirits in the church today"

This is absurd. We all feel unworthy before God because we are sinners saved by grace.
It is a normal state. So I suspect you are on the borderline of the grace movement, with
some very dodgy ideas about why people feel particular ways and an ability to condemn
people a bit too quickly.

 

[Stephen63]

So seeking after things, walking with the spirit will not do what God says,

thanks, here we have it people, God is a liar,

Gal 5:16 I say then, walk in the spirit, and you will not fulfill the list of the flesh

Hi there EG! I thought you had me on ignore!
Is G777 your god? You worship him now?

I said what G777 said wasn't true not God.

But, that's just like you, making malicious accusations, falsely accusing, & downright lying.

Originally Posted by Grace777x70
Walking by the spirit will always stop the lusts of the flesh that want to do "it's" desires.

It didn't stop Paul.....

Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

 

[Stephen63]

2Cor 7:8For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while— 9I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
QUOTE]

DID you skip the first line.....it was the LETTER and the word is SORROW...not conviction!

So godly sorrow is no longer conviction?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not think OSAS always advocates SIN. I do question where intentional discipleship comes into play with OSAS....

Not suggesting this from any of you here, but there seems to be a lack of knowledge or description from some of you about what the walk is about after you have been saved. Not to maintain or keep salvation at all.

More along the lines of growing up spiritually, becoming perfect[mature] in Christ, abiding, relationship building with God, doing good works out of love and like Christ did, making disciples and bearing fruit of those made disciples, etc.

I think covenant relationship believers are stymied by certain perceptions that OSAS believers do not talk about, and that is the above stuff...

I think the noise that keeps OSAS believers trapped in is the continual debate about how they are saved and are kept saved, but really and honestly....whats after that ya'll? What is your expectation for advancing the kingdom after you have been OSAS?

I hear some say God will finish the work in me, so I do not have to do anything but ride it out? My curiosity is, what your spiritual growth looks like after you are saved....

the problem with a lot of the evangelical church is they give the gospel, and bring people to Christ, but forget the discipleship part.

One of billy grahams largest regrets was that so many people came to God through him, but were then left without any proper training on what it meant to be a Christian, and how to grow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi there EG! I thought you had me on ignore!
Is G777 your god? You worship him now?

I said what G777 said wasn't true not God.

But, that's just like you, making malicious accusations, falsely accusing, & downright lying.

It didn't stop Paul.....

Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

You keep digging yourself into a deeper whole my friend.

Paul said if we walk in the spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Now either paul is a liar, or you are.



Of course paul still struggled, He struggled when he did not walk in the spirit. He struggled when he thought of self. He struggled when he was not c=focused on the things of God and serving others.

We all do.

But paul gave us the way out, Walk in the spirit, and you will not fulfill the things of the flesh.

You can continue to deny it, but in doing so, you expose who you really are. and continue to call God a liar,

 

[gb9]

Ok. Let me put it into context. I murder someone, outright, cold blooded murder,
and I come to faith. It does not matter, forgotten issue, I can go on to murder a
few more, God has forgiven me, it effects the people I murder, but I have immunity.

This is undiluted heresy and rubbish. Evil and sin has not part with the Lord and should
be dealt with.

Most in society are talking about speeding issues, white lies, not filling in tax forms correctly,
things they regard as minor, and God just accepts them as loved.

Now our sins passed are forgiven, and resolved, but we are expected to walk righteously.
To compromise on this is to compromise everything. So my question is, what sins are people
failing in, not just this junk of sin is just a done deal, and the sins we do do not matter.

That is heresy.

this is nothing more than a argument tactic- take an extreme , 1 out of 100 example, and try to apply it to everyday things.

just noise, nothing to see here.

 

[dcontroversal]

Paul relates in 2Cor that he will deal with those who didn't repent of their sin mentioned in 1Cor.

2 Corinthians 13​

1This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. 2I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone,

Does not change the fact that the Church collectively received Paul and his instruction.....which he does commend them for....and what is your point.....?

 

[Meggido]

Righteousness IS NOT TRANSFERABLE anywhere within the bible...neither is sin transferable....let no man deceive you; he that does righteousness is righteous, and he that sins is of the devil, said the apostle John....

the free gift is forgiveness and mercy by God for past sins upon those that confess and forsake their sin, however God's mercy will not fall upon the unrepentant, Exodus 34...............give up the vain traditions of men and seek God face to face.....

The free gift is also righteousness....

Romans 5.17-
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Righteousness was transferred to us as well:

2 Cor 5.21
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Repentance is a process not a 1 and you are done and you are right all the time....

 

[Stephen63]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70 Walking by the spirit will always stop the lusts of the flesh that want to do "it's" desires.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

DOES no mean we won't still have the internal struggle.........but that we can overcome it.....

True, but his statement is still a lie.

 

[Meggido]

Here is another take on does the Holy Spirit convict/convince/expose...if so...how and when and what is being exposed or what is being "revealed"?

Does He "reveal" to the world things that are different what He reveals to the believer that is in Christ?

This is just over 3 minutes long.

[video=youtube;zyAuhRf73D8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyAuhRf73D8[/video]

I know Daniel King personally...good guy.

 

[PeterJens]

this is nothing more than a argument tactic- take an extreme , 1 out of 100 example, and try to apply it to everyday things.

just noise, nothing to see here.

Let me put this type of response into context.

Something that shines a light on the hypocracy and falseness of a position is dimissed
as an extreme.

The joke is every sin is the same as any other, dooms you to hell. So taking murder
clarifies how deadly, DEADLY sin is, and how you must not treat it lightly.

Every word your faith relies on, relies on the speaker is tellling the truth. Your whole
religion is founded on the honour of God and His testimony. Word matter, they are
literally everything. Now a lost sinner will say to themselves, oh this small lie
does not matter, Ananias and Sapphira got a bit of a shock when it cost them
their lives......

 

[Meggido]

the problem with a lot of the evangelical church is they give the gospel, and bring people to Christ, but forget the discipleship part.

One of billy grahams largest regrets was that so many people came to God through him, but were then left without any proper training on what it meant to be a Christian, and how to grow.

I respect your candor on this answer, thanks EG...

 

[Meggido]

Who felt conviction

the tax collector on his knees, or the Pharisee praising God for how great he was?

The college students felt unworthy because the law did its job, and the HS helped them to understand that.

If I do not feel unworthy, I will never get on my knees and ask God for his mercy, I will continue to be some form of the Pharisee who thinks he is ok..

ok, thanks...

 

[Meggido]

and it appears that some would rather tell themselves they are clean, and deny, any dirt.

having a strong desire to be clean is a great thing, but carrying that desire to the point of denying the reality that we all ( you to ) have some dirt here and there is a bad thing.

Ok, I can see your context here for saying this, but how does this comment line up with John 13.5-11


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then He *poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. [SUP]6 [/SUP]So He *came to Simon Peter. He *said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?” [SUP]7 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]Peter *said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus *said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

 

[blue_ladybug]

To me, that's what convict means.. to rebuke, admonish, and/or correct us..

do they convict, or do they rebuke, admonish or correct?

 

[PeterJens]

Here is another take on does the Holy Spirit convict/convince/expose...if so...how and when and what is being exposed or what is being "revealed"?

Does He "reveal" to the world things that are different what He reveals to the believer that is in Christ?

This is just over 3 minutes long.

[video=youtube;zyAuhRf73D8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyAuhRf73D8[/video]

Another load of junk.

Let me summarise the illustration for you.
You live a life of doing good one day and failing the next. ( not called sinning? )
Jesus makes you appear perfect a straight line.

But so what! It is just a coverup of the bad life style and not resolving issues.
Somehow because of the coverup, sin is resolved, when it is not, and emotional
issues are still left unresolved and unmet.

Churches built on this foundation will rot from the centre out.

One pastor described his church as the highest turnover of members in the area.
I would say, if you want to know where love and faithfulness are preached and lived,
go to a church where people are consistent and stick with those they know and love.

 

[dcontroversal]

I do not think OSAS always advocates SIN. I do question where intentional discipleship comes into play with OSAS....

Not suggesting this from any of you here, but there seems to be a lack of knowledge or description from some of you about what the walk is about after you have been saved. Not to maintain or keep salvation at all.

More along the lines of growing up spiritually, becoming perfect[mature] in Christ, abiding, relationship building with God, doing good works out of love and like Christ did, making disciples and bearing fruit of those made disciples, etc.

I think covenant relationship believers are stymied by certain perceptions that OSAS believers do not talk about, and that is the above stuff...

I think the noise that keeps OSAS believers trapped in is the continual debate about how they are saved and are kept saved, but really and honestly....whats after that ya'll? What is your expectation for advancing the kingdom after you have been OSAS?

I hear some say God will finish the work in me, so I do not have to do anything but ride it out? My curiosity is, what your spiritual growth looks like after you are saved....

Spiritual growth is a process......being transformed by the renewing of the mind through a study of the word...and the application of the word in our lives......as in daily sanctification....

 

[blue_ladybug]

Uhhhhh, there were.. Or at least, very soon after He was born..

Why wasn't there 3 wise men at Jesus' birth?

 

[Stephen63]

Does not change the fact that the Church collectively received Paul and his instruction.....which he does commend them for....and what is your point.....?

God's letter with the Holy Spirit dealing with them brought godly sorrow to the church. That is conviction.