Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

I'd like to make an announcement.

All glory to God, today is my 7 year anniversary of being cancer-free.

View attachment 171768

AMEN BLUE.....ALL GLORY and PRAISE to the LORD of HEAVEN and EARTH.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

any church that pushes the " God loves good people, God hates bad people, so you must BE good in order to get to Heaven" lie, any church that pushes sinless perfectionism, ( I grew up in the first kind, not the second) is poison that should be exposed.

The hard part is how do you expose the lie, whil loving those trapped in the lie in a way they can see the lie, and not become defensive and think your attacking them?

Thats is the hard part

 

[gb9]

here is something else you sinless workers won't address- at my church, in a college town, many young people say in their testimony is " they feel unworthy and not good enough for God to accept them "

now, hand someone with this struggle a list of things they have to do and not do, with no love or compassion, is going to do what?? reinforce the feelings they already have, which could push them away from Christ for good. and who's fault would that be? the ones who gave them the works list. good luck with that on judgement day.........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

here is something else you sinless workers won't address- at my church, in a college town, many young people say in their testimony is " they feel unworthy and not good enough for God to accept them "

now, hand someone with this struggle a list of things they have to do and not do, with no love or compassion, is going to do what?? reinforce the feelings they already have, which could push them away from Christ for good. and who's fault would that be? the ones who gave them the works list. good luck with that on judgement day.........

the sad part is, God did their job, they feel unworthy, they are convicted of sin, the helper did their job,

then her comes the churxh and destroys the good good work God did, all we can do is pray God exposes the truth to these kids, and they will find it..

 

[dcontroversal]

The word convict is greek elenxie,

the word translated chasten is greek paideia

not sure where you get your info.

Again, this is an argument which is pretty much useless, I is a word or term you both interpret differently, but I am sure if we got to the meat, you both agree.

AMEN and the latter means the way you would train a child.....like potty training.......

 

[PeterJens]

they are not strawman, they are your continued misunderstanding of what people say and believe, they are your made up stories that do not even resemble reality of what anyon is preaching

EG - because people encourage you does not make you right or sensible.
You talk as if you know millions and millions of believers, through your short life and judge
them all as hypocritical legalists. Now I am neither this pompous or arrogant.

You obviously regarded yourself as a hypocrite, and I am not one to comment.
And my friend, you create straw men, which you claim as evil and wrong, and I expose this
all the time, but you just deny it. When will you be honest about your own projections and
just share your position, without pushing it as if you represent "the church" or "the great
teacher".

Until you have a pure heart and can see God, you will always talk and share this way.
Paul regarded believers as holy who walked in the Spirit. Can you do this, and understand
until sin defiles you through behaviour you are pure and holy?

For people with ocd legalism withdrawal, this is probably too difficult a concept to take on
board. God embraces you where you are, and accepts you are, but expects you to listen
and change. The difference between the Kingdom and the world, those in the Kingdom listen
to God and do His will.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Thank you, Stephen..

Congrats, Blue! I'm glad for you.

 

[dcontroversal]

dc - When will you understand perspectives and drop the lying accusation.

A heroin addict may believe he can be cured, but until he stops taking heroin, he
is not cured. If you believe in your heart you can never be free from sinful behaviour,
are never pure, clean and Holy, acceptable before the Lord, you are still polluted
and a sinner lost in sin.

Imagine this. How could anything be brought into the Holy of Holies? Only when they
was cleansed and purified, Num 8:5-13

Now we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, the veil is torn in two, we are regarded as
Holy.

But it appears you do not believe this. You think of yourself as an impure vessel, defiled
by sin, but looked at as if you are Christ.

This is the same as saying a herion addict is cured because their counselor is not an addict,
while they still main line. This is just make believe dream world.

Now our summary of this is to say you accept to walk with Jesus it is ok to be defiled.
If it is not ok to be defiled, then you can never walk with Jesus.

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Either sin is ok, and you fellowship with God, or
sin is not acceptable, and God rejects you because you can never be clean.

It is this simple and polarised. All your complaints are just hot air, because facts are facts,
as some love to tell me. So who is your God and how clean has He made you?

Here is my quote for you again.....it seems that this is all you can concentrate on......and thanks for proving my point pal...

ALL the workers for who can lose salvation will say that we advocate sin......I have yet to figure out how lying and misrepresenting the facts and or twisting what is said helps their working for café blend salvation....it would seem that lying willfully would cause them to lose their salvation......

 

[Ariel82]

Strong's Greek: 1651. ἐλέγχω (elegchó) -- to expose, convict, reprove

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1651: ἐλέγχω

ἐλέγχω; future ἐλέγξω; 1 aorist infinitive ἐλέγξαι, imperative ἔλεγξον; (passive, present ἐλέγχομαι; 1 aorist ἐλεγχθην); the Sept. for הוכִיחַ;

For sinnners
1. to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted ("ἐλέγχεινhateigentlichnichtdieBedeutung 'tadeln,schmähen,zurechtweisen,'welcheihmdieLexikazuschreiben,sondernbedeutetnichtsalsüberführen (Schmidt, chapter 4: § 12)): τινα, of crime, fault, or error; of sin, 1 Corinthians 14:24; ἐλεγχόμενοι ὑπό τοῦ νόμου ὡς παραβάται, James 2:9; ὑπό τῆς συνειδήσεως, John 8:9 R G (Philo, Works, ii., p. 649 (ed. Mang., vi. 203, Richter edition, fragment περί ἀναστάσεως καί κρίσεως) τό συνειδός ἔλεγχος ἀδέκαστος καί πάντων ἀψευδεστατος); followed by περί with the genitive of thing, John 8:46; John 16:8, and L T Tr WH in Jude 1:15 (Aristophanes, Plutarch, 574); contextually, by conviction to bring to light, to expose: τί, John 3:20, cf. 21; Ephesians 5:11, 13 (Aristophanes ecclesiastical 485; τά κρυπτά, Artemidorus Daldianus, oneir. 1, 68; ἐπιστάμενος, ὡς εἰ καί λαθοι ἡ ἐπιβουλή καί μή ἐλεγχθειη, Herodian, 3, 12, 11 (4th edition, Bekker); others); used of the exposure and confutation of false teachers of Christianity, Titus 1:9, 13; ταῦτα ἔλεγχε, utter these things by way of refutation, Titus 2:15.

For God's children
2. to find fault with, correct;

a. by word; to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove: Jude 1:22 L T Tr text; 1 Timothy 5:20; 2 Timothy 4:2; τινα περί τίνος, Luke 3:19; contextually, to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation: τινα, from someone, Matthew 18:15.

b. by deed; to chasten, punish (according to the translation of the Hebrew הוכִיחַ, Psalm 37:2 (), etc.; Wis. 12:2): Hebrews 12:5 (from Proverbs 3:11); Revelation 3:19. (On this word cf. J. C. Hare, The Mission of the Comforter, note L; Trench, § iv. Compare: ἐξελέγχω, διακατελεγχὡ(μαἰ.)

The Greek word has many uses as shown above. Convict and chasten are both used to translate and define the word.

Noticed the 1st DEFINITION is for sinners and the 2nd is for believes but they are still the SAME GREEK WORD.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is my quote for you again.....it seems that this is all you can concentrate on......and thanks for proving my point pal...

ALL the workers for who can lose salvation will say that we advocate sin......I have yet to figure out how lying and misrepresenting the facts and or twisting what is said helps their working for café blend salvation....it would seem that lying willfully would cause them to lose their salvation......

He he loves to blame everyone else. It is always our fault not his,

another factor useful for determining who is humbly sharing gods truth, vs who is proudly trying to shove their own truth,

 

[blue_ladybug]

Peter, we are ALL unclean. Ya know why? Because even though we may be saved, we ARE still human and still tempted to sin every now and again. But the good thing about getting "muddy", is God's forgiveness washes us clean, just like a garden hose.. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to not sin after they're saved.

For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

 

[gb9]

the sad part is, God did their job, they feel unworthy, they are convicted of sin, the helper did their job,

then her comes the churxh and destroys the good good work God did, all we can do is pray God exposes the truth to these kids, and they will find it..

the kids come to my church and hear that God loves them, he accepts them, through Christ he forgives them, and through Christ they can make a new start, and not be trapped in the lifestyles that were so bad and painful.

that should be the message at every place that calls itself the church, but sadly, that message is probably a minority...

 

[gb9]

Peter, we are ALL unclean. Ya know why? Because even though we may be saved, we ARE still human and still tempted to sin every now and again. But the good thing about getting "muddy", is God's forgiveness washes us clean, just like a garden hose.. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to not sin after they're saved.

For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

for some strange reason, some people think ALL does not include THEM....

 

[PeterJens]

here is something else you sinless workers won't address- at my church, in a college town, many young people say in their testimony is " they feel unworthy and not good enough for God to accept them "

now, hand someone with this struggle a list of things they have to do and not do, with no love or compassion, is going to do what?? reinforce the feelings they already have, which could push them away from Christ for good. and who's fault would that be? the ones who gave them the works list. good luck with that on judgement day.........

We are unworthy, without merit, lost, without hope or rescue. But Jesus embraces us
through the cross and comes and loves us, and empowers us to walk in His ways.

When this starts to change you, you realise you are accepted and loved and called a child
of God.

The law is about failure, love is about working through the issues. It takes time, discipleship,
listening, one to another. And you are right, few know the meaning of these words or the
balance of emotional and heart openness, walking in the love and the Spirit.

Why? Because we are not listening to God enough, and He waits. We are the ones who need
to move and put effort in, spending time in the word and diligently seeking righteousness and
good works. Tell me how many you know who would even agree this has value or on cc would
commit to 1hr a day spent in the word?

Even in these discussions, so much disrespect and abuse over issues that are so clear and plain,
it just demonstrates the spiritual poverty of so many.

The biggest joke today, pomposity. The church is like "x" there problem is "y"

If one cannot see this is pompous and arrogant, one is probably the author of the idea.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Is it wrong to not want to go to church service at a church that proudly displays the gay pride colors? Cuz at least 3 churches here in my town do that.. :/

A little off topic.. oh well.. lol

 

[Stephen63]

2Cor 7:8For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while— 9I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3568 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nyn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νῦν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Now[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5463 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]chairō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]χαίρω,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I rejoice,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PIA-1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ouch[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐχ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3754 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hoti[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὅτι[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3076 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elypēthēte[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐλυπήθητε,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you were grieved,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIP-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]235 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]all’[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀλλ’[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]but[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3754 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hoti[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὅτι[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3076 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elypēthēte[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐλυπήθητε[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you were grieved[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIP-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1519 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]into[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3341 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]metanoian[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μετάνοιαν·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]repentance;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3076 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elypēthēte[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐλυπήθητε[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you were grieved[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIP-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1063 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]gar[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γὰρ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]indeed[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2596 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kata[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κατὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]according to[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεόν,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]God,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1722 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]en[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3367 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mēdeni[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μηδενὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]nothing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-DNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2210 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]zēmiōthēte[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ζημιωθῆτε[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you might suffer loss[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASP-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1537 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ex[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐξ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]through[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hēmōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡμῶν.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]us.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-G1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
WHO grieved the church? WHY was the church grieved?

Since the Holy Spirit did that, WHAT DO YOU CALL IT?

 

[gb9]

We are unworthy, without merit, lost, without hope or rescue. But Jesus embraces us
through the cross and comes and loves us, and empowers us to walk in His ways.

When this starts to change you, you realise you are accepted and loved and called a child
of God.

The law is about failure, love is about working through the issues. It takes time, discipleship,
listening, one to another. And you are right, few know the meaning of these words or the
balance of emotional and heart openness, walking in the love and the Spirit.

Why? Because we are not listening to God enough, and He waits. We are the ones who need
to move and put effort in, spending time in the word and diligently seeking righteousness and
good works. Tell me how many you know who would even agree this has value or on cc would
commit to 1hr a day spent in the word?

Even in these discussions, so much disrespect and abuse over issues that are so clear and plain,
it just demonstrates the spiritual poverty of so many.

The biggest joke today, pomposity. The church is like "x" there problem is "y"

If one cannot see this is pompous and arrogant, one is probably the author of the idea.

proves my point exactly. here peter, wrong as usual, points out how one must work for salvation, while denying he teaches works for salvation.

paragraph 4.

 

[blue_ladybug]

I freely admit that, that verse includes me..

for some strange reason, some people think ALL does not include THEM....

 

[gb9]

I freely admit that, that verse includes me..

so do I. now, peter and others are going to attack us because we agree with God's word. " interesting" how that happens..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Greek word has many uses as shown above. Convict and chasten are both used to translate and define the word.

That is the the word used in John 16, how about using the word used in Hebrews 12, it is not the same word.

the word is paideai

1. the rearing of a child Aeschylus.
2. training and teaching, education
3. its result, culture, learning accomplish,ends, plat

An intermediate Greek-English Lexicon Liddel, Henry George




1, the whole training and education of children
2. Whatever in adults also cultivates the soul
A. Instructions which aim at the increase of virtue
B. Chastening chastisement

greek English lexicon of the NT Theyer, Joseph Henry