Not By Works

[PennEd]

it still does not make sense, why does he HS need to expose a child of Gods sin, they already know it is sin, he does not have to expose that, he has to expose their heart attitude (the attitude that wants to serve self not others)

And and I do not know about you, but when Satan tries to expose my sin, (he does it all the time, especially past sins I did awhile ago) I need to be reminded of my righteousness in Christ, or I would be taken down and destroyed,

Well said brother.

 

[PennEd]

Just think of the word CON-VICT. This is what we call a prisoner. One who was found guilty and paying the penalty for their crime.
There has to be a difference between loving discipline and being convicted.

 

[Ariel82]

Just think of the word CON-VICT. This is what we call a prisoner. One who was found guilty and paying the penalty for their crime.
There has to be a difference between loving discipline and being convicted.

So it's semantics then?

We can just stick to the Greek and avoid the unpleasant English word association with the word "convict" and prisoners.

We would use the word "correct" people when they sin and yes it's about heart attitude that needs to be changed.

Satan does like to bring up past sins or make you worry about future sins. Yet God looks at where we are in the present and walks with is here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just think of the word CON-VICT. This is what we call a prisoner. One who was found guilty and paying the penalty for their crime.
There has to be a difference between loving discipline and being convicted.

if we think about it, it is a reversal, as a child of the world, Satan does not want us to think we are sinners, it is agod who exposes our sin,

as as a child of God, it is Satan who wants to expose our in, and show us how worthless we are. It is agod who wants to expose his love, even when chastening us.

As a church, we can not help a brother/sister in a sin issue by throwing law at them trying to expose their sin, they already know it is sin, doing his will never cause a person to stop sin, yet that is what the traditional church wants to do, then wonder why I fails, (people rather walk away, hide their sin, then crash and burn, or replace one habit with another habit they will not be so harshly judged with. what the church needs to do is come along side, try to expose the heart issue, and get the person to stop being self focused, and making them others focused, all the whil fighting satans lie that god will not love them because they are doing that sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So it's semantics then?

We can just stick to the Greek and avoid the unpleasant English word association with the word "convict" and prisoners.

We would use the word "correct" people when they sin and yes it's about heart attitude that needs to be changed.

Satan does like to bring up past sins or make you worry about future sins. Yet God looks at where we are in the present and walks with is here.

Satan likes to bring up present sins too..just saying..

 

[PennEd]

So it's semantics then?

We can just stick to the Greek and avoid the unpleasant English word association with the word "convict" and prisoners.

We would use the word "correct" people when they sin and yes it's about heart attitude that needs to be changed.

Satan does like to bring up past sins or make you worry about future sins. Yet God looks at where we are in the present and walks with is here.

Yes sister. I have said already it is sematical to some degree.
Greek is one the, if not THE, most precise languages ever. I would use the English terms "loving, correction". The term conviction elicits punishment and severity.

 

[PeterJens]

it still does not make sense, why does he HS need to expose a child of Gods sin, they already know it is sin, he does not have to expose that, he has to expose their heart attitude (the attitude that wants to serve self not others)

And and I do not know about you, but when Satan tries to expose my sin, (he does it all the time, especially past sins I did awhile ago) I need to be reminded of my righteousness in Christ, or I would be taken down and destroyed,

it still does not make sense, why in heaven would God not want His people to
live righteously and without sin and doing evil.

I mean, God purchased His people through the cross, He would not go to this
effort to expect them to still be wollowing in the mud like pigs or eating their
own vomit, which they have repented of.

If we are actively sinning Paul would say hand these people over to satan so
they can really know what it is like to be a slave to sin, and stop polluting
the gospel of Christ.

 

[PennEd]

if we think about it, it is a reversal, as a child of the world, Satan does not want us to think we are sinners, it is agod who exposes our sin,

as as a child of God, it is Satan who wants to expose our in, and show us how worthless we are. It is agod who wants to expose his love, even when chastening us.

As a church, we can not help a brother/sister in a sin issue by throwing law at them trying to expose their sin, they already know it is sin, doing his will never cause a person to stop sin, yet that is what the traditional church wants to do, then wonder why I fails, (people rather walk away, hide their sin, then crash and burn, or replace one habit with another habit they will not be so harshly judged with. what the church needs to do is come along side, try to expose the heart issue, and get the person to stop being self focused, and making them others focused, all the whil fighting satans lie that god will not love them because they are doing that sin.

Very insightful point brother! Thanks

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just think of the word CON-VICT. This is what we call a prisoner. One who was found guilty and paying the penalty for their crime.
There has to be a difference between loving discipline and being convicted.

i think it shows a difference in terms

conviction means to expose, so that one may know they are judged correctly,

chasten means To correct, and help lead a person to a better way,

conviction brings judgment, correction (discipline to or chastening) brings peaceful fruit of righteousness

 

[Ariel82]

Yes sister. I have said already it is sematical to some degree.
Greek is one the, if not THE, most precise languages ever. I would use the English terms "loving, correction". The term conviction elicits punishment and severity.

It doesn't for me but I guess it might for some. English isn't my first language though I speak very little Khmer now. I studied people's intention behind words because translations often are very lacking.

Anyone fluent in more than one language knows that words can only get you so far in communication.

One word has so many different meanings and how you understand should be based upon context of the whole conversation.

"Loving correction" is the only kind I know and is what I think of when I hear the word,"convict"

Now I wonder what is the word used when God judges Satan to the eternal flames? Gonna look up Revelation 20 now.

 

[PennEd]

It doesn't for me but I guess it might for some. English isn't my first language though I speak very little Khmer now. I studied people's intention behind words because translations often are very lacking.

Anyone fluent in more than one language knows that words can only get you so far in communication.

One word has so many different meanings and how you understand should be based upon context of the whole conversation.

"Loving correction" is the only kind I know and is what I think of when I hear the word,"convict"

Now I wonder what is the word used when God judges Satan to the eternal flames? Gonna look up Revelation 20 now.

You are southeast Asian?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it still does not make sense, why in heaven would God not want His people to
live righteously and without sin and doing evil.

I mean, God purchased His people through the cross, He would not go to this
effort to expect them to still be wollowing in the mud like pigs or eating their
own vomit, which they have repented of.

If we are actively sinning Paul would say hand these people over to satan so
they can really know what it is like to be a slave to sin, and stop polluting
the gospel of Christ.

I am talking about how to help us live righteously, not what God does to expose the fact we have sinne, and fall short,

you expose sin to lead someone to Christ, that happens before salvation.

You dscipline a child child of God to help them live righteously, that happens after a person is saved

 

[Ariel82]

Satan likes to bring up present sins too..just saying..

Only in an attempt to get people to think they can't ever change (false view of the future and their future state stuck in sin) or their loved ones will listen to Peterjens advice and abandon them to Satan. We should instead of tossing people out of church with yesterday's trash, walk along side and showing them God's love and how He has empowered them to overcome this world.

 

[Grace777x70]

When does God "convict believers of their righteousness in Christ"?

When they fall short of His glory and sin....thus God is convicting them of their sins and showing them a better way.

It sounds like semantics and an attempt to draw people out of the church by attacking "church traditions". What are they being drawn into? A new cultish group with its own language that tells them they aren't convicted of sins?

Jesus said it Himself in John 16:8-9 - that the Holy Spirit convicts or convinces the believer of righteousness because He goes to the Father.

That's a bunch of nonsense of the accusation that this is trying to draw people out of the church. My goodness - what foolishness that is. It does the complete opposite and gets people to see what the Lord has done for them and who they are in Christ so that they can walk free of sinning and be who they truly are in Christ by the power of the Holy spirit in our lives.

I understand that the knowledge of the ministry of the Holy spirit as Jesus told us is against some church traditions and whenever we have a knife to the throat of one of our sacred cows - the fur will fly. The knowledge of what the Lord has done for us has borne the fruit of an exchanged life in my own life and to walk a holier life then I ever dreamed possible and I have heard the same testimony from many people.

There are no scriptures that say the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of sins. It's a man-made doctrine.

It actually says the complete opposite but I understand the antagonistic stance against it as it does speak differently then what we have been evangelically taught in some of our church traditions.

( This is not an attack on the church itself - she is beloved of God - bought by His blood and cleansed by His work on the cross. He gave His life for her. Eph. 5:26 )

 

[Ariel82]

God's chastenment and how the Holy spirit works to lead us into living godly lives is NOT a "sacred cow". It is life giving water based upon the power of God's love for us to overcome sin and the world.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Only in an attempt to get people to think they can't ever change (false view of the future and their future state stuck in sin) or their loved ones will listen to Peterjens advice and abandon them to Satan. We should instead of tossing people out of church with yesterday's trash, walk along side and showing them God's love and how He has empowered them to overcome this world.

yes, which is why churches like peters church will never help a child f God grow, only give them a false sense of security that they somehow made it,

i know, I grew up in that church, and saw so many good hearted people destroyed by the church that was supposed to help them

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God's chastenment and how the Holy spirit works to lead us into living godly lives is NOT a "sacred cow". It is life giving water based upon the power of God's love for us to overcome sin and the world.

Sacred cow?

 

[Ariel82]

You are southeast Asian?

Yes sir, thus my flag but grew up in the USA since I was 2. However Asian culture and values differ from mainstream America. Just as I believe Christian values should differ from the world.

Culture and traditions can differ from family to family. Church to church and that is not wrong.

What I find and treasure in all the churches I have been blessed to attend is the Holy spirit love moving through members to look beyond self and their church to others in the community and needing love, food and shelter.

Plus I like the free food and fellowship. Lol.

 

[willybob]

Hi RS

I don't know to whom you're speaking.
If you reply to me, please use the quote feature.

I find that there is a great deal of misunderstanding between the O.C. and the N.C.
It would seem that under the O.C. we are under the Law and under the N.C. we are not.

You yourself have stated that there is no sin where there is no Law.

So, the question becomes IS THERE A LAW?


Or did it just CHANGE?

Did God take the Law from a piece of stone upon which it was written when given to Moses...

And did He place it in a heart of flesh as promised in Ezekiel 36.26...


Or was the Law done away with, discarded, abolished?

Are we to believe JESUS or not?

Did Jesus not say that He DID NOT come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. Make it more complete, make it BETTER.
Mathew 5:17

In fact, JESUS says that not one iota of the Law shall pass. Many here know Greek, apparently, and will know that IOTA means not even one little letter of the Law.

So since you say that we need a Law to be accountable for sin and you believe there is no Law...

Could you please show me where JESUS says this?

Thanks.

they know not Fran that Jesus raised the bar and magnified the moral law (the Law of the Spirit) .Neither do they want to know, so they vainly spend their time analyzing the word instead of walking in it., forever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.......Paul said in Romans 3-31 that faithfulness to God establishes the law......be blessed and keep those shields up, there be many deceivers lurking here....

 

[Ariel82]

Sacred cow?

G777 fight against the idea that the Holy spirit convicts believers. He calls it a sacred cow.

I say the word convict in Greek is the same as the word translated chasten. Thus the same concpet PennEd express as "loving correction".

I don't care what word you use. The concept is that God will stop you in your tracks if you live unrighteously in sin and chastens/convict/lovingly correct/rebuke/reprove you by showing you what you did wrong and what He wants you to do and be instead,

I agree with you that we as believers don't need to go around pointing out others sins and judging them. God does that through His holy spirit. However God does call us sometimes to rebuke or chastens others in love. To turn them from the path they are walking away from the world and back to His light and truth. Which is that his love has overcome the world and He has empowered us to do the same.