Not By Works

[Meggido]

yes I have, and I have seen many in my life in church, I saw some curse god and walk away, I saw some praise God,

i saw saw some walk away for months, some for years, i saw some go into ministry and help others who lost children.

i would never question the salvation of any of them and I am appalled Fran would, especially since she is the one wh always screams we should never judge.

You do know, you used the term "walk away" more than once....

Why is it we cannot use this word but you can?

 

[Meggido]

Some people don't reject God...they reject the false platitudes Christians say and make.

like Job's friends who have him false comfort or accuse people of "lacking faith" and that's why bad things happen to them.

.they don't always turn from God but from the false image of God that people claim to be true.

Sometimes God leads us away from what we know to a deeper relationship with Him and His truth.

I would recommend "When God doesn't fix it" by Laura Story. It helped me see what we as Christians can do to someone suffering that actually hurts them instead of helps.

If we looked at Moses before the burning bush and after killing the Egptian, what would we see? He married the daughter of a pagan priest.

sometimes people start blaming God,which leads to rejecting him and then they do not believe anymore...

 

[willybob]

Yep, he had faith in the redeemer, and was born again, he found out works will never save you.

Nicodemus believed and had works of faith, knowing that works of the Pharasetic religion cannot save...His good works are seen in his actions, first in John chapter 7, and again when he came carrying the heavy load for Joseph of Amarathia, The two working together paints a biblical picture of the signature of #7 & #14.....Nicodemus following after #7 Joseph, and he being #14, the biblical number of redemption...a type of the 144,000 and the multitude..these signatures are merely symbolic, but very interesting indeed.....whereas the believers in the ecclesia gather in more believers, to become one body before the thrown of the Lord , wearing their white robes, its found in Rev 7 & 14....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Others might be just as appalled that you seem to imply everyone as a level of spiritual maturity that would get them past the hurt of losing a child or that it is a given that we should just take the loss as his divine will and never get hurt or offended by him for it.

I read your reply as, the lady should just trust Christ, and be together than her circumstance, after all God never promised us an easy life...so get on with it already. If I read it wrong than it is on me.

well you read it wrong, or misunderstood me, or I worded it wrong I do not know, it upset me at someone would questions salvation after she went through that pain

and I was not he one questioning her salvation.

forgive me if I got t upset.

 

[mailmandan]

how long did Paul say that pledge lasted?

until we worked hard enough? no

as long as we work hard enough? no

until we lose faith? no

as long as we keep faith? no

as long as we follow some law? No

as long as we have mor good deeds than bad deeds (trying to cover all the basis). no

he said until the day of Christ. The day of redemption, the day our eternal life is finally seen and experienced in heaven with him

Amen! Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words

<1,,728,arrabon> originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 1:21 - Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise God!

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You do know, you used the term "walk away" more than once....

Why is it we cannot use this word but you can?

I never used used it in the context of using salvation.

and I never said you could not, I just say I disagree with the context that people can walk away who have been saved.

 

[Ariel82]

sometimes people start blaming God,which leads to rejecting him and then they do not believe anymore...

I don't think anyone can deny the reality that people sometimes "walk away" from God.
.the question is what does God do?


Let them walk away and then cast them into hell?

Or does he walk beside them and carry them during this storm and hurt, then make them realise how much He loves them and how the world is corrupted by sin.

 

[Meggido]

well you read it wrong, or misunderstood me, or I worded it wrong I do not know, it upset me at someone would questions salvation after she went through that pain

and I was not he one questioning her salvation.

forgive me if I got t upset.

Like I said....I probably read it wrong....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some people don't reject God...they reject the false platitudes Christians say and make.

like Job's friends who have him false comfort or accuse people of "lacking faith" and that's why bad things happen to them.

.they don't always turn from God but from the false image of God that people claim to be true.

Sometimes God leads us away from what we know to a deeper relationship with Him and His truth.

I would recommend "When God doesn't fix it" by Laura Story. It helped me see what we as Christians can do to someone suffering that actually hurts them instead of helps.

If we looked at Moses before the burning bush and after killing the Egptian, what would we see? He married the daughter of a pagan priest.

Most people i led I have seen walk away from God walk away because of legalism, hey can't live up to he standard the church tries to place on them so why bother, they do not understand grace, all they know are s judgment

thats why I fight it so hard, and will till I die! Or until God stops me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nicodemus believed and had works of faith, knowing that works of the Pharasetic religion cannot save...His good works are seen in his actions, first in John chapter 7, and again when he came carrying the heavy load for Joseph of Amarathia, The two working together paints a biblical picture of the signature of #7 & #14.....Nicodemus following after #7 Joseph, and he being #14, the biblical number of redemption...a type of the 144,000 and the multitude..these signatures are merely symbolic, but very interesting indeed.....whereas the believers in the ecclesia gather in more believers, to become one body before the thrown of the Lord , wearing their white robes, its found in Rev 7 & 14....

he was saved the moment he trusted God, all HS works did was prove that God was write in giving him eternal life, they had nothing to do with his salvation,

 

[Zi]

He can't make them realize... They are free to walk if they so choose... We have more responsibility than you guys are willing to accept.. That's gonna be quite a disappointment..

I don't think anyone can deny the reality that people sometimes "walk away" from God.
.the question is what does God do?


Let them walk away and then cast them into hell?

Or does he walk beside them and carry them during this storm and hurt, then make them realise how much He loves them and how the world is corrupted by sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I said....I probably read it wrong....

its ok, forgive me bro..

 

[Stephen63]

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” Andbowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

in the Greek, Tetelestai, was a legal term, those who had paid their debt in full, carried a card with them affixed to the card was the crime, and stamped on it was the word tetelestai, it means the debt to society was "paid in full" and they could never be tried for the same crime again,

It seems every time you guys try to prove something, you pull a meaning outta thin air.

The concordances & lexicons don't agree with you at all.

NOWHERE does it mean "paid in full" or even close.

Dear readers, DO NOT believe these false teachers when they claim to use any study tool, because most of the time it's a fabricated lie to back their false claims.

It's blasphemy to add eisegesis to God's word.

Strong's Concordance

teleó: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill​

Original Word: τελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I end, accomplish, pay
Definition: (a) I end, finish, (b) I fulfill, accomplish, (c) I pay.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5055 teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. See 5056 (telos).
[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]


NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from telos

Definition
to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
NASB Translation
accomplished (3), carried (1), carry (1), completed (3), finish (1), finished (11), fulfilled (2), fulfilling (1), keeps (1), pay (2), perfected (1), performed (1).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5055: τελέω

τελέω, τέλω; 1 aorist ἐτελεσα (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 13, 3 c.); perfect τετέλεκα (2 Timothy 4:7); passive, present 3 person singular τελεῖται (2 Corinthians 12:9 L T Tr WH); perfect τετελεσμαι; 1 aorist ἐτελέσθην; 1 future τελεσθήσομαι; (τέλος); from Homer down;
1. to bring to a close, to finish, to end: ἔτη, passive, passed, finished, Revelation 20:3, 5, 7 ((so from Homer and Hesiod down; Aristotle, h. a. 7, 1 at the beginning, p. 580{a}, 14 ἐν τοῖς ἔτεσι τος δίςἑπτά τετελεσμενοις); τριῶν τελουμενων ἡμερῶν, Lucian, Alex. 38); τόν δρόμον (Homer, Iliad 23, 373, 768; Sophocles Electr. 726), 2 Timothy 4:7; τούς λόγους, Matthew 7:28 L T Tr WH; ; τάςπαραβολάς, Matthew 13:53; (ἄχρι τελεσθῶσιν αἱ πληγαί, Revelation 15:8); a rare use is τέλειν τάς πόλεις, i. e. your flight or journey through the cities (R. V. ye shall not have gone through the cities, etc.), Matthew 10:23 (similar are ἀνύειν τούς τόπους, Polybius 5, 8, 1; τά ἕλη, 3, 79, 5; consummare Italiam, Flor. 1, (13) 18, 1; explere urbes, Tibull. 1, 4, 69; conficere aequor immensum, VergilGeorg. 2, 541; also xii., signorum orbem, Cicero, nat. deor. 2, 20, 52); with the participle of a verb (like ἄρχομαι, παύομαι, cf. Winers Grammar, § 45, 4 a.; Buttmann, § 144, 14), Matthew 11:1.
2. to perform, execute, complete, fulfill (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command, etc.), i. e. α. with special reference to the subject-matter, to carry out the contents of a command": τόν νόμον, Romans 2:27 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 134 (127)); James 2:8; τήν ἐπιθυμίαν (i. e. τό ἐπιθυμουμενον), Galatians 5:16. β. with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving a notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfill: ἅπαντα (πάντα) τάκατά νόμον, Luke 2:39; τήν μαρτυρίαν, the duty of testifying, Revelation 11:7; τό μυστήριον, passive, Revelation 10:7 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 277 (260)); τό βάπτισμα, passive, Luke 12:50; πάντα, passive, John 19:28 (the distinction between τελέω and τελειόω may be seen in this verse); τούς λόγους (τά ῤήματα) τοῦ Θεοῦ, passive, Revelation 17:17; ἅπαντα (πάντα) τά γεγραμμένα, Acts 13:29; passive, Luke 18:31 (see γράφω, 2 c.); with ἐν ἐμοί (in me) added, in my experience, Luke 22:37; ἐν πληγαῖς, in the infliction of calamities, Revelation 15:1; τετέλεσται (A. V. it is finished) everything has been accomplished which by the appointment of the Father as revealed in the Scriptures I must do and bear, John 19:30. equivalent to τελειόω, 2, which see (made perfect): 2 Corinthians 12:9 L T Tr WH.
3. to pay: τά δίδραχμα, Matthew 17:24; φόρους, Romans 13:6, (τόν φόρον, Plato, Alc. 1, p. 123 a.; τά τέλη, often in Attic writings). (Compare: ἀποτελέω, διατελέω, ἐκτελέω, ἐπιτελέω, συντελέω.)

 

[Ariel82]

Leave him alone !
I saw him first.

Lol I love him like a brother and I don't believe in incest.

I was actually thinking of the bike ride in the woods and thinking it would be awesome to be able to have it in my "backyard" my kids would love being so close to nature.

We just got home today from camping (my daughter and me). The boys still at boy scout camp.

 

[Ariel82]

He can't make them realize... They are free to walk if they so choose... We have more responsibility than you guys are willing to accept.. That's gonna be quite a disappointment..

Are you saying God isn't with you during the trials of your life even when you feel him far away?

What I am saying is don't judge yourself or others in the middle of the story.

God isn't done with us yet.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejycllx5iwA

Add to ones Faith the knowledge that when God begins a good work, He completes it.

 

[mailmandan]

MMD twists and turns and cranks out those long sentences.
You DO have to be a bit of a dramatist to do this.

But he calls ME dramatic!
LOL

MMD rightly divides the word of truth and properly harmonizes scripture with scripture before reaching the proper conclusion on doctrine. You are dramatic and silly at times, but that's okay.

 

[Meggido]

I don't think anyone can deny the reality that people sometimes "walk away" from God.
.the question is what does God do?


Let them walk away and then cast them into hell?

Or does he walk beside them and carry them during this storm and hurt, then make them realise how much He loves them and how the world is corrupted by sin.

I gave everyone a very lengthy answer on that a page or so ago...God never left or forsook the first generation that die din the wilderness of the Sinai....they did die and only Caleb and Joshua and the 2nd generation entered into the literal promised land...they died and did not enter rest because of their unbelief......

Maybe a good study would be Numbers 13-14, 26 & 32 and then rightly divide it with Hebrews 3 and 4....

God is good, no question. God also cannot deny himself...

 

[Zi]

Is that anywhere in my words? You guys twist stuff it's so horrible

Are you saying God isn't with you during the trials of your life even when you feel him far away?

 

[dcontroversal]

Most people i led I have seen walk away from God walk away because of legalism, hey can't live up to he standard the church tries to place on them so why bother, they do not understand grace, all they know are s judgment

thats why I fight it so hard, and will till I die! Or until God stops me

To the honest...There is no ability to keep your salvation dia works and no sinning.....they may go a week and then fail and tell themselves that they cannot live up to it and lose heart....exactly why we are called to enter into HIS rest dai faith....and the promises made b Christ to keep us, finish us, not lose us, save us to the uttermost, continually forgive us, keep us by his power etc.......

 

[dcontroversal]

You should be saying.....dear readers do not pay attention to me because I do not know what I am talking about......go work your way there pal....and see how that works out.....

It seems every time you guys try to prove something, you pull a meaning outta thin air.

The concordances & lexicons don't agree with you at all.

NOWHERE does it mean "paid in full" or even close.

Dear readers, DO NOT believe these false teachers when they claim to use any study tool, because most of the time it's a fabricated lie to back their false claims.

It's blasphemy to add eisegesis to God's word.

Strong's Concordance

teleó: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill​

Original Word: τελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I end, accomplish, pay
Definition: (a) I end, finish, (b) I fulfill, accomplish, (c) I pay.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5055 teléō (from 5056 /télos, "consummation, completion") – properly, to complete (consummate), i.e. finish (qualitatively) the necessary process – with the results "rolling-over" to the next level (phase) of consummation. See 5056 (telos).
[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]


NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from telos

Definition
to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
NASB Translation
accomplished (3), carried (1), carry (1), completed (3), finish (1), finished (11), fulfilled (2), fulfilling (1), keeps (1), pay (2), perfected (1), performed (1).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5055: τελέω

τελέω, τέλω; 1 aorist ἐτελεσα (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 13, 3 c.); perfect τετέλεκα (2 Timothy 4:7); passive, present 3 person singular τελεῖται (2 Corinthians 12:9 L T Tr WH); perfect τετελεσμαι; 1 aorist ἐτελέσθην; 1 future τελεσθήσομαι; (τέλος); from Homer down;
1. to bring to a close, to finish, to end: ἔτη, passive, passed, finished, Revelation 20:3, 5, 7 ((so from Homer and Hesiod down; Aristotle, h. a. 7, 1 at the beginning, p. 580{a}, 14 ἐν τοῖς ἔτεσι τος δίςἑπτά τετελεσμενοις); τριῶν τελουμενων ἡμερῶν, Lucian, Alex. 38); τόν δρόμον (Homer, Iliad 23, 373, 768; Sophocles Electr. 726), 2 Timothy 4:7; τούς λόγους, Matthew 7:28 L T Tr WH; ; τάςπαραβολάς, Matthew 13:53; (ἄχρι τελεσθῶσιν αἱ πληγαί, Revelation 15:8); a rare use is τέλειν τάς πόλεις, i. e. your flight or journey through the cities (R. V. ye shall not have gone through the cities, etc.), Matthew 10:23 (similar are ἀνύειν τούς τόπους, Polybius 5, 8, 1; τά ἕλη, 3, 79, 5; consummare Italiam, Flor. 1, (13) 18, 1; explere urbes, Tibull. 1, 4, 69; conficere aequor immensum, VergilGeorg. 2, 541; also xii., signorum orbem, Cicero, nat. deor. 2, 20, 52); with the participle of a verb (like ἄρχομαι, παύομαι, cf. Winers Grammar, § 45, 4 a.; Buttmann, § 144, 14), Matthew 11:1.
2. to perform, execute, complete, fulfill (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command, etc.), i. e. α. with special reference to the subject-matter, to carry out the contents of a command": τόν νόμον, Romans 2:27 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 134 (127)); James 2:8; τήν ἐπιθυμίαν (i. e. τό ἐπιθυμουμενον), Galatians 5:16. β. with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving a notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfill: ἅπαντα (πάντα) τάκατά νόμον, Luke 2:39; τήν μαρτυρίαν, the duty of testifying, Revelation 11:7; τό μυστήριον, passive, Revelation 10:7 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 277 (260)); τό βάπτισμα, passive, Luke 12:50; πάντα, passive, John 19:28 (the distinction between τελέω and τελειόω may be seen in this verse); τούς λόγους (τά ῤήματα) τοῦ Θεοῦ, passive, Revelation 17:17; ἅπαντα (πάντα) τά γεγραμμένα, Acts 13:29; passive, Luke 18:31 (see γράφω, 2 c.); with ἐν ἐμοί (in me) added, in my experience, Luke 22:37; ἐν πληγαῖς, in the infliction of calamities, Revelation 15:1; τετέλεσται (A. V. it is finished) everything has been accomplished which by the appointment of the Father as revealed in the Scriptures I must do and bear, John 19:30. equivalent to τελειόω, 2, which see (made perfect): 2 Corinthians 12:9 L T Tr WH.
3. to pay: τά δίδραχμα, Matthew 17:24; φόρους, Romans 13:6, (τόν φόρον, Plato, Alc. 1, p. 123 a.; τά τέλη, often in Attic writings). (Compare: ἀποτελέω, διατελέω, ἐκτελέω, ἐπιτελέω, συντελέω.)