Not By Works

[FranC]

Yet unfortunately, the truth continues to go right over your head.

So many sentences? My post was not that long and I thoroughly explained the truth to you.

It doesn't take a PhD to figure out the truth here. Don't be so dramatic.

*Descriptive Passages - "have done what is good/have done what is evil" (John 5:28-29); "everyone who does good/everyone who does evil" (Romans 2:6:9-10).

*Prescriptive Passages - "whoever believes in shall not perish/is not condemned/shall receive eternal life" (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26). Simple!

Everybody who truly understands those verses understand that those are DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture and not prescriptive passages of scripture.

You just don't get it.

I'm such a silly girl !!!!!!!!!
Everything goes over my head.
Must study harder.

Till I come to agree with OSAS. THEN, you'll think I'm soooooo intelligent.

 

[PHart]

lol..And who is the arrogant one here? (I call all people dudes even my best friend, it is a habit)

Instead of boasting of how smart you think you are. maybe you should read the entire thing. and start to actually think about the whole situation from gen 12 up to to gen 22

Abraham did have faith, God said so in Gen 15. (God does not lie, why you insist he does, well thats between you and God not for me to judge)

He lacked faith in CERTAIN AREAS OF HIS LIFE.

That lack of faith in those areas did not cause Abraham to forfeit his salvation (again you need to read Hebrews 11, Abraham already PROVED HIS FAITH by leaving his father, and by living not in the luxery of his fathers riches, at his fathers house, but in tents in a country that was not his own,

You want people to have perfect faith in all areas of their life before they are saved? they would have to be perfect. Are you perfect?

Your asking for a standard no one can live up to not even yourself

Again, As I said, James was not written for people like Abraham, God said his faith made him saved way back in Gen 15, and he reconned, considered, or imputed to abraham, righteousness (perfect standing), And God did noy lie!

As I said, Abraham already proved his faith was real LONG before Abraham had the chance to offer his son.

You see, Abraham was not perfect. He lacked faith in some areas.

But he was a doer of the word.. As proven in hebrews 11: 8-10

James is written to non doers of the word but hearers ONLY. not doers.

Nice try, I hope you had your minute of pride and it made you feel good. because thats all you will have..

This is a pretty big tangled mess of doctrine here. It's going to take a lot of time to untangle it. But I know that's how it is in the church today. That's why I won't go into the ministry (one of the reasons, anyway).
I'm going to work now. I'll be back.
In the mean time, just think for a while what huge error of scripture you made in that post.

Does anyone else see the HUGE mistake of scripture eternally-gratefull made? (See my post #15692 for the quote)

 

[Stephen63]

Complete rubbish!

1What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a]2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:1-4

I am sorry Paul contradicts you!
His merit got him nowhere, faith on the other hand...."Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” ​Rom 4:3

And how does Paul finish this little vignette:

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:4

OUCH!

What was that saying about context again?

One-verse wonders won't get the job done.

 

[dcontroversal]

My prayer is that many might see the false prophets on this site after scripture has stripped them naked in their theology. Yes they will continue night and day to argue in favor of sin and surely not die....However, you, the onlooker must decide. The truth is no driving force in the world, and the majority is always wrong, yet they still gravitate to the foolishness of strength in numbers....think back to Noah, he was out voted a million to one, but the truth still prevailed...They whole world loves this easy-greasy grace message and the Penal Substitution myth..God told Moses and the Israelites that HE allows false prophets to prove you....

I am fairly confident that any honest person not blind to the truth can see who is false here....the above posts by you that are embellished, yanked out of context and applied erroneously prove beyond a doubt that this post of your here is applicable unto you pal....

Noah and a million to one you say....quote that verse if you can....without your embellishment.........or be found false and adding to the word!

 

[Stephen63]

Please prove this with Scripture!

EVERYWHERE Paul speaks about works, he is talking about Judiazers adding law works to salvation.

Everybody knows that!..... well, maybe not everybody.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is the other man cute?

Ok. Seriously now.
There's never any kidding around on this thread...
And yes, my husband is alive and living.


When Abraham "slept" with Hagar, the Egyptian maid of Sarai, it was not considered adultery.
It was a custom of the time.
The Law had not even been given yet. (the decalogue)

God was not angry.
Genesis 16:6-13

God flooded the worl because men were sinners, how could men know what sin was, the law was not yet given..

Sin is sin is sin, it was sin, in fact it was so grave a sin the Middle East has suffered the result of that sin even till today,

customs of the day do not determine what is sin, God does, that's the problem with the world today custom says it is ok to live with your gf or bf, it is ok to covet, it is ok to lie cheat and steal.

That dies not make it right, let's call a sin a sin.

 

[dcontroversal]

do you really desire to continue in your foolishness in front of all who are reading here? You might want to reconsider, because you offer nothing but vain opinions, lacking all understanding of the text, therefore just avoiding it...

You must be a comedian.......this is laughable at best and tragic at it's worst.....the only one who lacks understanding pal is obvious.....you would not understand context if you were staring at the word in a dictionary after taking 120 semester hours of college applicable unto the word..... HAH wow.....!

 

[PHart]

Just a small observation. If the words "as a second wife" mean adultery, we are talking
a different moral framework than Gods.

That is fine, as long as it is declared, or else you get confusion.

I agree that the sin of adultery is not the issue here.

Abraham sleeping with Hagar was a sign of his faith, not a sign of unbelief in the promise of God. Up to that time God had not revealed to him that it was to be through Sarah that the child of promise would come from his own body. He slept with Hagar BECAUSE he thoroughly believed that he would have a son coming from his own body, not because he didn't believe that.

Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
2 Tim 2:23

Good point.
I have to say, most of what gets posted here falls into the stupid and foolish arguments category, lol.

 

[dcontroversal]

banana, coconut cream, or pecan, a good hot apple pie with lots of vanilla ice cream works also?

Thanks.....this made me hungry AHHAAHHAHAHAH and I have NO pie available to raid hahah

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a pretty big tangled mess of doctrine here. It's going to take a lot of time to untangle it. But I know that's how it is in the church today. That's why I won't go into the ministry (one of the reasons, anyway).
I'm going to work now. I'll be back.
In the mean time, just think for a while what huge error of scripture you made in that post.

Does anyone else see the HUGE mistake of scripture eternally-gratefull made? (See my post #15692 for the quote)

If you do do not want to see it, you will not

ask yourself this.

1. Was abrahams faith not proven by leaving his fathers land and sleeping in tents? Hebrews thinks so

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

2. Since Abraham was already proven to be a hearer of the word, was James written to Abraham? What more did he have to prove? James said a person who has no works (zero zip nada) Had a dead faith, Abraham had these recorded works, and we are sure many other works on top of these, so Abraham proves he is not a hearer only, not was his proclaimed faith devout of works, he had many3. As already mentioned, God declaired him righteous in gen 15, Paul repeats it in romans 4, were God and Paul liars?
I hope you have a good lunch, if you need to come back and Boast" that you have tricked me again, well feel free, we all know better though but if it makes you feel good, I will sacrifice my self out of live,

But you will never convince me god made a mistake in gen 15' or was fooled by abaraham and God did not already know his faith was real

as I said, God knew Abraham would do it. He did it for abrahams sake, not his own, God does not need proof, if you think he does. Well why would you belittle and discredit God like that?

 

[Stephen63]

I often hear works-salvationists (in a desperate attempt to get around the truth) claim that Paul limits works merely to "religious works/specific works of the law etc.." but does not include works in general when he said "not of works" (Ephesians 2:9); "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5); "not according to our works" (2 Timothy 1:9). Then they try to twist the scriptures to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.

That in red is incorrect.

Any works done to take the place of faith & make us righteous is the sin of self righteousness.

But to show faith, one must have works to prove faith, & those works MUST result from that same faith.

If you don't believe & do works anyway, that will profit you nothing.

 

[Ariel82]

Okay...explain what you mean by the bold statement?

Originally Posted by FranC View Post
Agreed.

Ive said many times that if we're going to attribute EVERYTHING to God, then we must also blame Him when we sin.

The Holy Spirit empowers us,
it does not turn us into a robot.

John 5:28-29 New International Version (NIV)

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
If Jesus is goingto judge as in the above verse, it means He holds US responsible for our works, NOT the Holy Spirit.

It's been said over and over again that attributing good gifts as from God is biblical and does not mean that we attribrute sin to God. It means we give Him praise and glory because He is the one empowering is to do good works. He gives us faith.

It has been stated that eternal security does not mean people don't have free will to choose good or evil. It means that when folks choose evil, God does not abandon His children or toss them out with the trash. he chastens them and leads them back into a right relationship with Him.

However people can label this "greasy grace" or "cheap grace", if they like but it would be a false label.

I call it security in having faith/trust in God's ability to fully save all His Kids.

 

[dcontroversal]

the own merit starw-man to justify a forgone conclusion of iniquity. Lets tear down this stronghold and expose it for what it really is...

To clear up this own merit fable and the grasping for straws. Knowing this first; no one can forgive past sins except God, its all the mercy of God, so don't worry about earning your own salvation. Its impossible…. Secondly; everyone is doing works of their own merit 24/7, either the woks of iniquity, or the works of godliness..So lets put to rest this own merit straw-man, it becomes very tiresome to those with discernment. It sounds good to an undiscerning ear, but its all fluff to one who rightly divides the word of truth..our works are infact based on our own merit, rather they be evil or good...

Your posts are irrelevant.....because you fail to use context and push a heretical dogma....and the funny thing is...those who also push a false working for dogma and salvation that can be lost are the only ones deceived enough to like them HAH tragic....

 

[PeterJens]

You want people to have perfect faith in all areas of their life before they are saved? they would have to be perfect. Are you perfect?

EG - I am shocked at you. Here you are telling someone what they believe, and then
condemning them personally.

How is it you are using a straw man, not even in the ideas sense but applied personally
to an individual you do not know, who has never claimed to be perfect, and then
proceed to condemn them for it?

Where is your honesty or truth or desire to not offend or falsely accuse your neighbour?
If I was to make an observation on this alone, it is sinful behaviour, nothing minor about it.

You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
Exodus 20:16

Whoever slanders their neighbor in secret, I will put to silence; whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, I will not tolerate.
Psalms 101:5

Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
1 Tim 4:2

Now the serious truth is, we are here to investigate and discuss scripture and theology,
but one group want to make it personal to annoy and emotionally provoke because to put
it mildly, they do not have anything else.

A blind person is in the dark, and all the arguments they have to hand are their own
imaginations. When scripture contradicts them, they say it must be satan, because they
never saw it coming.

I have to say my experience of scripture is actually different. I now see connections I never
saw before because I am getting more in tune with Pauls emotional feelings and ways he expresses
himself.

Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.
2 Cor 9:13

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:4

Sadly many confess they are not resisting sin at all, but continually walking in it daily.
This is a non-christian understanding of sin and righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree that the sin of adultery is not the issue here.

Abraham sleeping with Hagar was a sign of his faith, not a sign of unbelief in the promise of God. Up to that time God had not revealed to him that it was to be through Sarah that the child of promise would come from his own body. He slept with Hagar BECAUSE he thoroughly believed that he would have a son coming from his own body, not because he didn't believe that.



Good point.
I have to say, most of what gets posted here falls into the stupid and foolish arguments category, lol.

Oh my, look at the people excusing abrahams sin, and they want to judge us of sin

dude, clean your own life up first, and learn what sin Is before you try to clean others people's lives.

 

[dcontroversal]

Complete rubbish!

1What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a]2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:1-4

I am sorry Paul contradicts you!
His merit got him nowhere, faith on the other hand...."Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” ​Rom 4:3

And how does Paul finish this little vignette:

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:4

OUCH!

AMEN bro.....these workers for and sinless perfectionists and those who teach a losable salvation that must be maintained will find out when they find themselves in the plenteous in number grouping that Jesus denies knowing.....tragic day for sure....

 

[dcontroversal]

Remain justified? Of all who are justified, how many of them will be glorified? Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.

If Abraham would not have offered up Isaac on the altar, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but that was not the case. The faith that doesn't act/work at all demonstrates that it's a dead faith and not genuine faith and that's why it cannot save. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. If Abraham would have dropped dead of a heart attack after he believed God and his faith was accounted for righteousness but before he had the chance to offer up Isaac on the altar, he still would have been saved because of his faith.

AMEN....saved, justified, sanctified and sealed<---all past tense and with continuing results based upon Christ and his work.......

 

[dcontroversal]

I went to a Lutheran funeral. They do do the eucharist, only it is not limited as in the catholic church only to certain people. I can say I was saddened that the gospel was not given, Especially since I am not sure my nephew is saved. And was hoping the death of his mother could shake him, But a lost opportunity.

I will nto say what their gospel is, I do not know. so will not guess.. I know my brother in law loves it,

I have family that are Lutheran.....it is similar to Catholicism with a few twists......NOT SAYING ALL ARE, but can only go by my family and what they push

 

[Stephen63]

Also... the thief on the cross who had faith. No works added.

He didn't show any works as a result of his faith?

Read the scriptures:

Luke 23
​

39One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41“And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

The last time I looked, rebuking & asking were actions.

 

[dcontroversal]

Please prove this with Scripture!

No worries mate....the way he disregards context....he can find Jesus eating at a Burger King (Hungry Jacks) while changing sink water into Cherry Coke..........