Not By Works

[Stephen63]

For me, I was saved The moment I had faith, and God declared me righteous as he did abraham

That means you got saved as soon as you reached the age of accountability.

Were you saved as a young child?

 

[dcontroversal]

Guess I missed that part, my bad...

No biggie mate.......peace bro

 

[Meggido]

Explain what? Did God really question abrahams faith? Was it for Gods benefit, or abrahams?

Again, If it took all those years for abraham to actually be saved, and he was lost up until that time or in limbo.. What does that say?

how convenient of a an answer....IOW....I did not know about this passage, so let me pull something out my back pocket....and call it a hankie when it is a waded up Kleenex

really EG, you are far better than this...

 

[stonesoffire]

2Pe 1:3　 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the full knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence.　

Does this one scripture not answer this thread?

 

[Ariel82]

Abraham was not saved under the New Covenant...neither was David, Daniel and others. I asked you this pages ago and you neatly side stepped the question<<<<<<meaning you never answered it.<<<<you neatly side step a lot DC...

Heb 11 tell's us that Abraham was not justified until he offered Isaac, that is when the blessings[partaking/enabling]of the promise of the inheritance was activated...NOW I KNOW....and NOW YOU WILL RECEIVE...

Then how do you think they were saved?

 

[dcontroversal]

So now you are going to tell us Abraham was saved under the new covenant?

Post 15015 bro and

answer the following please

a. How many apples identify an apple tree?
b. Is an apple tree an apple tree from the moment it sprouts?
c. Is an apple tree still an apple tree for the 3 or so years it makes to bear fruit?
d. Is an apple tree still an apple tree is it has a good year and bears fruit and then has a bad year of drought and does not bear?
e. Is an apple tree still an apple tree if a bad late frost kills all the blooms and it does not bear that year?
f. is an apple tree still an apple tree if all of it's fruit is loaded with worms one year?
G. As a matter of fact....is an apple tree still an apple tree no matter what happens after it sprouts from seed it's whole life?

 

[Meggido]

Sure I answered...go back and read......here..one more time for you

O.T. SAINTS----saved by faith looking forward to the cross-->JESUS<----------saved by faith looking back to cross N.T. SAINTS

Covenant ratified by the death of Christ and deal sealed by his resurrection from the dead.....David speaks of his salvation in the present tense....O.T. saints held in Abraham's bosom (paradise) until covenant ratified with the d, b and r of JESUS.....

peace bro....I will only say this, yes you answered with this, but I asked you how this could when Paul said those under the law died under the law....and Hebrews says they did not have access to a better covenant based on better promises...you never answered this..

We do not need to go round and round...peace

 

[BillG]

If "most" did, they wouldn't be deceived & fall away, now would they?

I'll leave the "we" up to your.

You can't leave that up me as it was you who posted 'we're' so it confused me in terms of what you were saying.

If most did as you say wouldn't be deceived and fall away I don't get that either.

Not being obtuse.

Are you saying most actually don't and therefore are deceived.

We know about Jesus talked about the narrow path.

I am assuming you think you are on the narrow path and anyone who disagrees with your theology that leads to a doctrinal position is on the wide path.

If I am wrong please correct me. If I am right please enlighten me.

 

[Meggido]

Then how do you think they were saved?

Abraham was not under the law....nor was he under the new Covenant, neither were any of the OT saints...they lived and died under the law.

Heb 11.39-40

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [SUP]40 [/SUP]because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.


What was promised Ariel?.....how can OT saints gain Jesus when they did not receive the promise of a better covenant base don better promises?

 

[BillG]

I would call it saving faith..,,folks can have faith in lot of things that doesn't save.

Sorry I thought my last paragraph was coveying that.

 

[dcontroversal]

peace bro....I will only say this, yes you answered with this, but I asked you how this could when Paul said those under the law died under the law....and Hebrews says they did not have access to a better covenant based on better promises...you never answered this..

We do not need to go round and round...peace

Sure they died under to law....Jesus himself was also born under, lived under and died under the law.....that does not change the fact that O.T. saints were saved by faith into the coming Messiah which was prophesied all the way back to Genesis 3:15....EVEN JOB....the oldest book of the bible stated that he KNEW his REDEEMER LIVED an that HE WOULD SEE HIM with his own eyes long after his body had been given to the grave and the worms....HE believed in and understood the resurrection....as well as DAVID.....how is it that you cannot see this line of faith woven throughout ALL of human history....do a translation from HEBREW on what EVE said when CAIN was born.....even she had faith based upon Genesis 3:15.......

JUST like HEBREWS 11 states...THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH......it is faith that saves......regardless of being in the O.T. or the N.T.

 

[Ariel82]

Abraham was not under the law....nor was he under the new Covenant, neither were any of the OT saints...they lived and died under the law.

Heb 11.39-40

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [SUP]40 [/SUP]because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.


What was promised Ariel?.....how can OT saints gain Jesus when they did not receive the promise of a better covenant base don better promises?

The new Covenant was promised in Genesis 3,

 

[dcontroversal]

I have asked this twice.....can someone honest please answer the questions....

Answer the following please

a. How many apples identify an apple tree?
b. Is an apple tree an apple tree from the moment it sprouts?
c. Is an apple tree still an apple tree for the 3 or so years it makes to bear fruit?
d. Is an apple tree still an apple tree is it has a good year and bears fruit and then has a bad year of drought and does not bear?
e. Is an apple tree still an apple tree if a bad late frost kills all the blooms and it does not bear that year?
f. is an apple tree still an apple tree if all of it's fruit is loaded with worms one year?
G. As a matter of fact....is an apple tree still an apple tree no matter what happens after it sprouts from seed it's whole life?

 

[Ariel82]

Sorry I thought my last paragraph was coveying that.

It did... Was just trying to clarify the difference when some say "faith" it can mean many things. What you describe is what I call a saving faith. Other types of faith don't save.

 

[FranC]

easy yes. Biblical no!! grace is a free gift. do you understand this? one does not " earn " a gift,

gb9

Grace is a free gift.
yes.

What does that have to do with anything?
Please explain.
Please use scripture.

 

[Zmouth]

Abraham believed God, but God is not moved by belief, God is moved by faith, hence Gen 22.12<<<<NOW I KNOW

But many here believe saving faith is a gift of God and it is God personal faith or Jesus's personal faith that saves you and not your own personal faith.

This is why they can say I believe, but not worry about having the personal faith to give up anything, unlike Abraham's personal faith was ready to give his only son.

Well, I know that I didn't have faith until it was given unto me by the LORD. I didn't get it by hearing his Word, I didnt' get it by reading his Word, I got it when I was quickened by His invisible hand.

So did Abraham really believe the LORD?
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. Genesis 9:6

So Abraham was going to sacrifice his child because the "Spirit" told him to?

Gen 22:11-12
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.



[See 2 Cor 11:14]

 

[UnderGrace]

So so ironic really....


Sadly while hesitating to use this terminology your dogma cheapens Grace because it makes it a Services rendered expecting payment in return, God says NO, it is a Gift.

You are adding to the Gospel (plan of salvation) plain and simple.

Your comment then informs me that you do not understand the Love of God nor His Grace.

But I have hope...God is faithful to those who believe who He says He is.

Everything I've given you is of NO VALUE TO YOU since have give me nothing in RETURN.

HELLO!!!

Cheap Grace DOES NOT mean that God's grace is cheap.

It means that SOME MEN MAKE IT OUT TO BE.


You should try to understand the difference.

For instance, you're beliefs make grace to be cheap.

If I give you everything and you give me nothing,
Everything I've given you is of NO VALUE TO YOU since have give me nothing in RETURN.

Easy concept.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, I know that I didn't have faith until it was given unto me by the LORD. I didn't get it by hearing his Word, I didnt' get it by reading his Word, I got it when I was quickened by His invisible hand.

So did Abraham really believe the LORD?
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. Genesis 9:6

So Abraham was going to sacrifice his child because the "Spirit" told him to?

Gen 22:11-12
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.



[See 2 Cor 11:14]

Your statement contradicts the bible---->faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.......

 

[Meggido]

Post 15015 bro and

answer the following please

a. How many apples identify an apple tree?
b. Is an apple tree an apple tree from the moment it sprouts?
c. Is an apple tree still an apple tree for the 3 or so years it makes to bear fruit?
d. Is an apple tree still an apple tree is it has a good year and bears fruit and then has a bad year of drought and does not bear?
e. Is an apple tree still an apple tree if a bad late frost kills all the blooms and it does not bear that year?
f. is an apple tree still an apple tree if all of it's fruit is loaded with worms one year?
G. As a matter of fact....is an apple tree still an apple tree no matter what happens after it sprouts from seed it's whole life?

You guys use this out of context example of fruit trees all the time. Fruit is not an indication of salvation...fruit bearing glorifies the father and proves we are his disciples...John 15.8

If you are an apple tree and have no fruit you are still an apple tree, but you will be cut down and placed into the fire,if you do not respond to the care Jesus gives you[Luke 13.6-9] and not because you did not work for your salvation but that you proved not to let God be glorified by making disciples...

This hellish lie that fruit bearing is proof of salvation is true. Fruit bearing is not proof of salvation. Now people are syaing because of grace fruit bearing is not even needed. Jesus disagreed big time John 15.8...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't you consider that the term believe and faith to mean the same thing? So if a person believes something then they have faith since the two terms are interchangeable right? So you always had faith, you were just saved when you had faith in God right?

No

I can believe in someone or something, yet not have faith at all. As james said, Even demons believe.. But there is a reason they are lost.

I believed for months, But it was not until I had true faith that I was saved