This scripture is referring to John the baptist coming to bare witness of Jesus who is the light. they were both cousins and close to same age.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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P
PHart
Guest
If you would give me the Christian grace of at least hearing the argument you'd see that I'm hardly saying works make a person righteous and, therefore, eligible for the kingdom. Works simply show you to have Christ's righteousness and, therefore, based on his righteousness you are eligible for the kingdom. But the church at large can only hear that as a works argument.
Now, go ahead and say that I' saying works provide the righteousness necessary for entrance into the kingdom. I dare you, lol. Instead of what I'm actually saying, that works provide the necessary evidence of Christ's righteousness for entrance into the kingdom of God. Go ahead, show us you still can't hear the argument.
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No need to say "again", I'm not arguing against you nor am I accusing you.
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 2 Tim 2:8
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Rom 2:16
Seems he was pretty clear on whose gospel it was.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
John 17:5-8
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18
Of course it is a misdirection and moot point to you because you are a believer, and believers believe that believing is faith.
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. Deut 32:20
if the bot fits.....Learn yourself Fran...faith plus work for salvation equals LOST.....regardless of your inability to acknowledge truth....and your a hypocrite...you judged everyone who believes different than you, make snide remarks about grace and belief and then turn around and say stuff like this...
Now for the record....I judge one's dogma....and false gospels will not lead to heaven....so......quit lying and saying I condemn to hell because what I condemn is false gospels...not people....
Yep and it also states he was taught by direct Revelation and the gospel does belong to the saved....so...again a moot argument and more misdirection....anything of value to add?
Reading romans 6 it is obvious Paul expects us to walk in righteousness and put to
death evil deeds, because we have died with Christ and raised to new life in Him.
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Rom3:31
We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
rom 6:2
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
rom6:8
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
rom 6:11-13
thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
rom 6:17-18
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
rom 6:23
It is amazing to me how people can deny this obvious teaching Paul is giving.
In Christ we are dead to sin, but alive to righteousness if we walk in the Spirit.
And if we walk in the Spirit there is no more condemnation because we fulfil the
law of sin and death.
death evil deeds, because we have died with Christ and raised to new life in Him.
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Rom3:31
We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
rom 6:2
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
rom6:8
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
rom 6:11-13
thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
rom 6:17-18
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
rom 6:23
It is amazing to me how people can deny this obvious teaching Paul is giving.
In Christ we are dead to sin, but alive to righteousness if we walk in the Spirit.
And if we walk in the Spirit there is no more condemnation because we fulfil the
law of sin and death.
I guess if the LORD gave Jesus the words....
Why? you have nothing in your hand....
Dude what is your point....the book matters not..it is the mind of Christ and the word of God, regardless who penned it...so...what is your point other than to argue for the sake of arguing...
So the Bible doesn't matter yet it is the mind of Christ and the Word of God? Which one is it?
Are you seriously that dense.....? The bible is the mind of Christ, it is inspired of GOD and who penned what book does not matter....it is all the word of God........so....what is your point other than to just argue and cause issues...
True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.
Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13
It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.
Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.
James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.
We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith with a corresponding action or a "work".
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.
Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.
James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.
An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".
His faith was completed as a result of already being declared righteous by God. Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested. There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true. There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness.
Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.
Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.
We will see corresponding action or works that glorify God.
Tell us all the works that one must do to "prove" we are saved and to make sure we are saved when we die? How many of these works must one do to "prove" we are saved? How many works a day should we do? How many a year?
What if we don't do as many "works" this year as last year? Do we get kicked out of Christ for not having the :works" that we did before?
At what point does our own righteousness works become enough in order to maintain our salvation?
If our eternal destination is dependent on our works - then knowing each work we need to do and how many of them - that would be a handy dandy piece of information to have.
A
Ariel82
Guest
I see what you are saying but I don't believe you really understand folks position. Especially if you believe anyone says that a dead faith will save.
I believe it comes down to what exactly is a saving faith?
I don't believe works are needed to save. I also do not believe fruit of the spirit is the same as works of righteousness. Fruit is inner change that results in outward behavior change and actions. I agree everyone should have these if they truly walk with the Holy spirit. To what degree depends on how mature each person is in Christ.
However works are different. They are dependent on the individual spiritual gifts God has given each person. They are our God given ministry and place in the Body of Christ.
Everyone who has a saving faith in Christ will have life changing things happening in their heart and mind. However it takes a level of maturity before most people are given a ministry within the Body.
Sadly most don't even drink their milk much less learn to eat meat.
I'm sorry Ariel.
it seems like both you and Dcon just don't hear.
WHO SAID A DEAD FAITH SAVES???
I'd like to get off this thread but it's too interesting !!
I think P.Hart is right. You hear what you want to hear or what you're conditioned to hear, not what the person is saying.
Seems I had this same problem with you and Others here.
We really should keep an open mind....
And really listen....
I'm not going to quote the scripture about having ears but not hearing...
Ooops. I think I just did...
If you believe scripture is the mind of Christ why do you deny it?
Now in truth if your heart is not aligned to Gods heart you will not see His intentions,
because He has made it this way.
Scripture reflects what the reader wants it to say, as a judgement against what is within.
The Lord desires we purify our hearts, that cleanse our souls from sin through the blood
of Christ through repentance, yet if you fail to do this, one will always find justification
in verses here and there, and those that speak of something else will remain silent.
So all who hold the different viewpoints will find they hold the view in their head and yet
they cannot read the word to confirm it. If the law condemns them, they cannot read it
without pain, or listen to what is being said.
The Lord is not looking for self opinionated people but a people after His heart who are
prepared to walk in His ways and know His will. There is no pretense here or putting others
down, or defending oneself, because there is no need.
If people think they can commit sin without mourning they do not know the King.
Jesus shared everything, but people miss the significance and meaning because it does not
dwell in their hearts.
How can the King of creation be meek? How can the King of creation be a servant, to meet
the needs of His people, and yet reign over all? If you truly want to know this King you need
to be like Him.
Evil? Evil is plain and obvious, it is not hidden behind words, it lies, slanders, heaps abuse
where none is deserved, it claims good things will sinning and boasting of it at the same time.
And such a group will be impervious to the truth, because they have closed their hearts and
know the divide but not which side they are on. Only when you have life, will that life bear
fruit, and when this life is made clear to those in darkness, only confusion will fill them.
There is only resolution for the elect, nothing else matters.
The reality without a pure heart, a cleansed spirit, and redeemed soul, in communion with
the Holy Spirit, things will always be confused and fuzzy.
Jesus leads us to the way of cleansing, but until we are cleansed we cannot see it, and only
the cleansed know its reality. It has never been about knowledge or position.
I was talking to a brother today about men opening up. He lives a very defended life, and
keeps everyone at a distance and trusts no-one, and when I talked about openness and a
space for guys to share about how they felt, he was not interested, but not passively but
actively as if it represented a threat to him.
We do not doubt our own hearts that they deceive us and lie to us, but think we can trust
our own motivation. I learnt years ago my heart will betray me to stop repentance and
humbleness. Call it pride or denial, it is lethal to the soul before God.
It is strange that those who use this defence so strongly are the ones who accuse us of this very
thing when it is their biggest problem. They need true repentance, mourning and grief, but it is
this they resist above all things.
Listening reveals so much of another, praise the Lord that He brings the light to our hearts and
before Him we need have no fear, only honesty and humbleness.
All born-again Christians are pure in heart. It's the same reason why all water is wet. It's the very nature of it.
Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart which is pure because it is in Christ!
I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him.
In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically - looking into this New Covenant and said - "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".
We are now in the New Covenant a new creation in Christ joined as one spirit forever. John 14:16
We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.
It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.
We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.
I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.
We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13
The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23
Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.
The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.
Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heartto that form of teaching to which you were committed,
God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.
Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.
2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.
Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forththe Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
God has cleansed our hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love from our hearts now as it is pure.
1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )
1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.
We still have the flesh with the law of sin in it ( Rom. 7:17-22 ) to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.
Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart which is pure because it is in Christ!
I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him.
In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically - looking into this New Covenant and said - "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".
We are now in the New Covenant a new creation in Christ joined as one spirit forever. John 14:16
We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.
It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.
We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.
I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.
We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13
The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23
Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.
The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.
Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heartto that form of teaching to which you were committed,
God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.
Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.
2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.
Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forththe Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
God has cleansed our hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love from our hearts now as it is pure.
1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )
1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.
We still have the flesh with the law of sin in it ( Rom. 7:17-22 ) to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.
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