Not By Works

[BillG]

I used to play snooker.

I was on for a 147 once.

Then I missed the first black

 

[dcontroversal]

what would you shoot on the back nine


I used to play golf but alas my knees no longer cope.
Om a bad day I was called a military golfer. Left right, left right

AHAH no really...that is what I shoot 18 holes if I play regularly....grew up playing 27 holes a day as a kid.....and three rounds a week 18 holes par 72 on a course called Long Hills...runs in the family...My uncle was the club champion for like 20 years straight......had good instruction....

 

[PeterJens]

I hate to say it peter, but I have to consider you a lost cause,
you always think everything is about you,

EG - The point about the post I highlighted the "you" points, you made that whole post
about me.

I recognise there is no engagement here, so God bless you.
Without engagement you can say what you like, as you do, but it does not connect, because
it is not a response to a conversation.

Language is a strange thing. In one sentence one can seem perfectly ok, and then say something
disconnected. Now in itself it can make sense, but be irrelevant to the discussion or points.

So as you refuse to answer my points, God bless you. I have no clue your real agenda, as without
answering the points it is just blowing in the wind.

My assumption has to be emotionally some cannot seriously engage because it hurts too much.
Bill I have a lot of respect for you, because we talk at a spiritual level in very similar terms.

All I can testify to in my life is many cannot engage in the Lord because there emotional life shuts
too many things down. Paul talks of walking in the flesh as the reality which limits us.

I can only conclude those who have not found purity in heart and honesty in the cross are bound
in this odd state, lashing out at others, determined to put them in their place but totally unaware
of the emotional forces that are driving them on in this forever mission to weed out whatever they
think is wrong in the church. Maybe it is pure inexperience, but I gave up believing argument is
anything, it is spiritual reality that matters, and unless people get right with God, blindness dominates.

And I am not on any mission to put anyone anywhere. I just desire Gods will and to see how I can
encourage others. So God bless you, and Praise the Lord.

 

[BillG]

AHAH no really...that is what I shoot 18 holes if I play regularly....grew up playing 27 holes a day as a kid.....and three rounds a week 18 holes par 72 on a course called Long Hills...runs in the family...My uncle was the club champion for like 20 years straight......had good instruction....

On a good day I could play to about 5 over and on a bad day about 35 over.
If my head was in the right place all was good if not all was bad.

I remember playing once with 4 holes to go I was scratch.
Left with a par 4, water on the left, par 3 over water about 159 yards, par 3 raised green and par 4 about 400 yards.

9, 5, 5, 7.

Had to buy a new driver and 7 iron after that.

Played in a few pro-ams with a pro called Martin Thompson. He played Tiger, Nick Faldo.

On our first time together after the 1st hole he said "F*** me your not a 20 handicap.

On the second hole he said "Now I can see why you are"

 

[PeterJens]

However, you can count on the following,
I will continue to expose your slander when you do that to anyone
i will continue to give a counter argument any time I disagree with what you say about Gods word
If you do not like that, that's too bad. Live with it.

I will no longer try to help you learn how to discuss with anyone, or try to help you to be truthful, you speak of love and holiness, yet almost daily you commit the sin of bearing false witness. Stop trying to be a teacher of repentance and holiness, when you refuse to repent yourself

And love, love does no harm to people, it surely does not slander them with lies, all we can do is pray one day you see this,

If only you actually did what you claim to do.
Earlier on this thread you claimed I was determined to expose you.

I showed it was always the other way around, and I have no interest other than
learning scripture and giving glory to God.

I feel like I have a snake by the tail and any wrong move I will be bittern.
So for me, as you cannot engage at any reasonable level, probably because I reject
where you are standing, that is the end of it.

On the subject of being bittern by a snake

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.
John 3:14-15

 

[FranC]

People walking away from the church. Why go to church when it is lifeless, When you have a sin issue you can not defeat, and you can't get help, because legalism can only judge you, not help you. You can only hide your sin so long before satan uses it to tear you down, and take you out.

In my prodigal days, I did not go to church, But if someone asked me about God, I loved hi, I knew I was saved, and I would never deny him, I just was lost in my own struggles.

In my example,

I left home to go into the military when I was 17, I felt free. I did not have to hide things anymore, I Enjoyed (or so I thought) all kinds of sin, all the things I wanted to do but was to afraid to (that's what happens when your under law) and prety much wasted many years of my life, I married a gal I should have never married, I finally did get back into church, But it was the same old stuff, having to hide so much, Then I became involved, thought that would help. But my home life was falling apart due to the military, (people do not understand the stress military puts on any family) WHen I got out, I went back to my old church, Same stuff, Only this time I was not so much worried about sins, I wanted to serve others. I taught sunday school, was involved in helping start a christian school, Ran a food pantry, Tried many things, then due to problems in the church, it crashed and burned, and split up. Again, legaism took its tole on a church.

Eventually my wife left me, And thanks to legalism, I was afraid to go to church because I was a failure, I could not even keep my family together, and we all know what God thinks about divorce, I was a sinner of all sinners..

I then fell away hard, I became a prodigal son, who left the church for 5 years.. I was angry, I was hurt, (I did not stop believing in God. or think he left me, But I was confused, and could not understand why things happened, Was it sin, Was it me, What was it,

It was not until 5 years later, My best friend, Who I helped lead to the lord when we were teens, Called me out of the blue, and my restoration started. and I started to really study and find out all the things i thought were true were legalistic hogwash, That God loved me because he created me, not because of what I did or did not do. and he wanted a real relationship with me. I was healed. I had friends I could confess my sins too, I found healing and victory over those sins, I am still to this day working as God says to be sanctified, and knowing that I have not yet made it I still need to run the race.

But my life story has me passionate about legalism, I want people to find the freedom I did. To be released from the prison that enslaves. Whether a person is saved or not, I do not know, I accepted the Lord around 7 years old, I remember it like it was yesterday, I know it changed my life for a few years, then that pastor left, and I got tore down by legalism by the pastors who followed. But I was saved, Continued to be saved even in the darkest time of my life (the footsteps in the sand picture is a reality, God realy did carry me when I thought he was gone, I just could not see it. But I see it now, My life was hard, but could have been so much worse, I am lucky to be alive)

anyway, Sorry to be so wordy, I hope this makes sense.

Hey EG,
Thanks for a beautiful testimony.
Want to know something? I never was under legalism.
I Always felt free.

I was born and raised Catholic (I'm Italian). I Always loved God and went to confession as a little girl and to church all the time.
Even when I was about 10 or 11 and my parents didn't take me -- I went by myself. The Church was two blocks from my home in Astoria and this was done back in those days.

The priest used to tell us we had to be good and all that. Every preacher says we have to be good. Even the one at a tiny Assembly of God Church here that I really can't go to because there are only 10 members and the pastor lives very far from here. So that's nothing new.

Anyway, I just felt like God loved me. Then years passsed and I didn't think about God too much. Got married. Had two children. I had my problems. Pretty distraught --- nothing could be done. I started praying to the God I knew, Jesus, and asking Him what I could do. One day while I was in my kitchen in Whitestone NY, He told me what to do. It was almost audible, it was so strong. He put an image in my mind. It helped my problem to go away for more than 30 years.

I was born again at that time and the Catholic Church no longer fulfilled my spiritual needs. So I looked around and went to a Nazarene chuch for about 10 years. As you must know, it's an offshoot of the Methodist Wesleyan Church. They talked about sin and works more than the catholic Church did !! But I trusted my Lord and knew Him and all was OK. I learned a lot there.

I'll stop here because the story would be too long. I just find it funny when posters here tell me I'm legalistic because of my Catholic background. Nothing is further from the truth. There's too much assuming going on instead of asking and discussing. But that's OK with me. I know whom I have believed and have no problem expressing my beliefs.

So you had to find freedom and so find it very important to preach freedom.

I Always was free and condemn no one. Not even those under legalism because even if they are workers for, but are doing it for Jesus, they ARE SAVED. Their doctrine may not be correct, but their soul is saved by our Lord -- not by whether or not they have the correct doctrine in their mind --- as long as they have Jesus in their heart.

I have studied a lot. I find it very important to understand Justification and Sanctification. Our walk is a cooperative effort with God. We do not walk alone, but we do have to walk. God will not force us to do anything we do not want to do. There is no Calvinism in my blood because to believe Calvin is to believe in a different God from the one I serve.

I dont' care for hyper-grace or Word of Faith.
Jesus didn't hang on that cross so some 2,000 years later someone could decide that we must do nothing except believe and not also preach an internal change which must happen if one is saved. They make it sound toooo easy. Easy Believism.

God is an all-good God but He is also a just God. He demands that we obey Him. I don't find any problem with this.

You have done important "works" for God. So why do you speak against works? What do you think works are?

Our life experiences color everything we believe and understand.
The most important fact of Christianity, as I see it, is that we are to love each other.
God IS Love. Those in the Kingdom must share God's love with believers and non-believers.

I'm sorry this was so long.

 

[Meggido]

do you believe in eternal security?

I believe God saved us by his grace when we believed. And we can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I also do not believe that the free gift in Eph 2.8-9 is the free gift of God or Jesus's saving faith. I believe the free gift in this verse is salvation. This will be met with resistance by some here, but I do not want it to be a source of contention. I believe saving faith is a form of personal faith.

Since I interpret that a measure of personal saving faith is required to be saved, I also believe that a personal saving faith can be shipwrecked through backsliding, falling out of relationship with Father, falling away due to deception, these are what I believe are by products of failing to abide with Christ and being one with him.

JJesus said in John 17.3-
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

That word know means being intimate or to become one with another. It is actually the Greek word for sexual intercourse and it is the same in the Hebrew rendering.

Abiding is very central to the Gospel message and Jesus preached it extensively, abiding is not works we do or practical righteousness. Abiding is resting in what Jesus has done for you, period.

God offers me eternal covenant relationship.
God does not break covenant with me and I do not "lose" my salvation if I do not perform "works" or obey laws or commands, etc"
I stay in eternal covenant relationship with father, because of my love for him based on all that Jesus did for me and he did alone.
God's love keeps me in the relationship, I would never want to leave the love of Father,
God's side of the eternal covenant relationship never fails and is always there.
This is what I define "eternal security" to be.

 

[Meggido]

If you were in Missouri we could go shoot a round....love golf....when I play regularly can shoot mid 80's on a par 72......

Schweet, I love put-put and Cool Crest..the wind mills traps are the best....oh wait....

 

[FranC]

Hello Ariel,

Sorry for the slow reply as I can’t get to the forums as much as I would like due to work and family commitments. Your post above to me however was little bit puzzling to say the least as I was not trying to give you an outline of the Gospel. I would have hoped you already know the Gospel. I hope I was not mistaken? Actually if you look at the context, I was replying to an earlier post from you asking why all the posts from people that were talking about the need for obedience to God’s Word.

I don’t see any of these same people saying to anyone here that we believe that was are saved by our works but everyone that presents a bible verse saying that faith if it does not have works is a dead faith seems to be accused as people that believe they are saved by their works and not faith in Christ. Why is this? Do these people secretly know what is in the heart of others and their relationship with Jesus?

What is sad for me however is that there is so many people here in this thread who like to share their own opinions on what the Word of God means without even backing up what they are saying with scripture. These same people then slander others that try to share the Word of God as it seems for no other reason they attack the messenger instead of the message. This is very sad to me. Doesn’t the Word of God tell us that we should be like the faithful Bereans who received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so? (Acts 17:11).

Yes it sounds like you have your own interpretation of the parable of the sower and I believe also it was the fourth that was sown on good ground that had saving faith. This is the whole point of the parable. The discussion between the two groups I see here is about saving faith and dead faith or a faith that does not save.

In the parable of the Sower the Word of God clearly tells is what the seed is. Did you read it? We do not need to put our own interpretation on God’s Word when He clearly tells us….

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.” (Luke 8:11). Looking at the following verse it is very clear that there is a class that according to Jesus received the word of God with Joy and for a while believed but when temptation came they fall away into sin…..

“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13)

This is all that I see people have been saying to others here in this thread. Do you believe you can fall away from the Word of God by continuing in sin and not giving it up?

Let’s share the Word of God together with the Love of Jesus and put away our own opinions. Let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, that thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged. (Rom 3:4)

God bless you

Very good post LGF

You have put the problem here in a nutshell.

Some make the word "works" into a bad word when God DEMANDS works.

Works PRIOR to salvation are not even Worth a mention.
Works do NOT save us. We all agree on this.

But works ARE NECESSARY After Salvation. And herein lies the problem.

As you've stated, NO ONE is saying that works save.

They KEEP US SAVED.
But some posters don't even like to say that !

Could you imagine some new Christian reading along and reading that and thinking how great it is to believe in Jesus and then not have to do anything for the rest of his life?

In effect, even though some here deny this, it is exactly what it sounds like.

Those that understand about verbiage, should know about this.

And, yes, scripture should be used. Our own opinions are pretty useless when we have THE WORD OF GOD to refer to!

 

[FranC]

Perhaps you and others miss the point of the thread....it is based upon the fact we are not saved by works but by faith.

It's not about folks who are Rocky ground even though you and others would make it the main topic and focus.
.it I a about what is good soil and what is the Gospel aka Word that people accept.

Too many people preach only half the Gospel and that is false,

Legalism is false and so is licentiousness.

What do you believe the Gospel to be?

How exactly is your understanding of the parable different from mine?

I know some replace the word gospel with Jesus and believe some people can lose salvation because of this misunderstanding of the parable. Does Satan steal Jesus from people? No he steals the Gospel message.
.three of those soils were never saved and did not have the Holy spirit indwelling.

LGF is right Ariel.

Whatever this thread started out to be, what he says is true.

Works do not bring a person to salvation. It is a free gift.
However, works keep us saved and here lies the disagreement.
You seem to know what sanctification is, but then you can't seem to be able to declare it.

And in Mathew 13: 18-23 if you check again, there are at least two saved persons..
Mathew 13:23
Mathew 13:21 what would you say the person is "falling away" from?

He received the word with joy. Are born again believers that hear the word of God not joyful?

The person in Mathew 22 is questionable.

However the person in 20 and 21 is definitely saved. He HEARS THE WORD AND RECEIVED IT WITH JOY.
THE ROOT IS TEMPORARY. When affliction comes HE FALLS AWAY.

 

[Meggido]

LGF is right Ariel.

Whatever this thread started out to be, what he says is true.

Works do not bring a person to salvation. It is a free gift.
However, works keep us saved and here lies the disagreement.
You seem to know what sanctification is, but then you can't seem to be able to declare it.

And in Mathew 13: 18-23 if you check again, there are at least two saved persons..
Mathew 13:23
Mathew 13:21 what would you say the person is "falling away" from?

He received the word with joy. Are born again believers that hear the word of God not joyful?

The person in Mathew 22 is questionable.

However the person in 20 and 21 is definitely saved. He HEARS THE WORD AND RECEIVED IT WITH JOY.
THE ROOT IS TEMPORARY. When affliction comes HE FALLS AWAY.

Works wont keep you saved ever...relationship is not predicated upon work, failed marriages proves this. Divorce occurs when one of the 2 parties leaves or falls away because they fall out love and relationship and cannot be intimate and one with each other any longer....

 

[FranC]

Works wont keep you saved ever...relationship is not predicated upon work, failed marriages proves this. Divorce occurs when one of the 2 parties leaves or falls away because they fall out love and relationship and cannot be intimate and one with each other any longer....

Huh?

You just said divorce is due to one person falling away.
Rethink.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Putting aside your differences do you really consider him a lost cause?
I suppose PJ could say the same and you maybe he has.

Me thinks neither of you probably do.

Go back to your wonderful post in your wilderness years, were you a lost cause? During this period what were your thoughts about you then and what are they truly now.

I just want to say that I am talking to you and not addressing PJ.

I think the truth is in reality as genuine beleivers all we want is the best for each other in Christ. That's the ultimate and that's why we will still engage.

you have mail bro, and thanks

 

[slave]

Agree again. Jesus said you cannot serve God and mammon. It does not make the things you have in parenthesis a sin, however they cannot be loved more than God. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS righteousness...

I agree wholeheartedly that those things I mentioned which were in (parentheses) I posted are only sins if they are idolatry. And I do also agree that which I should have made more clear, that working a secular (quote unquote) job is a Christians privilege actually; Even our duty. As we recognize we are separate from the world, many of us would love, then, to simply opt out of ever going back into it to preach the gospel. Many simply like to hang with the brethren, or isolate themselves altogether. But that is not Jesus' will. As God sent Jesus into the world with good news, so then, Jesus prayed to His Father to protect His children and send His Saints into the world and preach the good news.

Therefore, those who try to opt out of the world only demonstrate that they are still in some degree in bondage to its ways of thinking. We who are "not of it" have no reason at all to try to leave it, for it is where we should be. So there is no need to give up our secular employments lest they are your god.And that, only in consideration of righting your position with God in that matter as need be. Far from it, these are our mission fields. In this matter there is no secular considerations, only spiritual ones. We do not live our lives in separate compartments, as Christians in the Church and as secular beings the rest of the time.

There is not a thing in our profession, or job, that God intends should be disassociated from our life as His Children. Everything we do, be it in the field or the highway, in our shops or factories, in our kitchens, hospitals or schools, or even our trip to 7-11 all has spiritual value in terms of the Kingdom of Christ.

Those whom you say are "pushed away" are the ones that I say lose their salvation. I believe we're going to disagree here.
Salvation comes by FAITH. No faith, No Salvation.

Now, as far as your other, or second response - I am not sure I understand our indifference. Maybe you can clarify that for me. But suffice it to say, I am not saying this "pushing back" is the person's will altogether yet, but the process which clarifies a persons true character, that Christ uses in building Character in a man or woman. thus allowing God to continue to work in the line of His finishing workmanship within a man/woman. There will be ebbs and flows in our lives until we grasp onto that which, God, first grasped onto us with; namely His Spiritual truths. And in that maturing "process" (which was the highlight there in my wording) the person is given elbow room to grow as he then continues to move onward and upward.

Where we have to be careful, (if indeed I am understanding you correctly) that if we say these people going thru the natural process of trials and tests; to which God is revealing their true nature to their person; where they are in maturing-mode, as (1 Thess. 2:4) describes, you are suggesting then that one sin will pop you out of Salvation. And this is not Biblical.

Now if while I went thru (1 Tess. 2:4) over and over and over again, in my response, I replied, "No God I don't think so, so no God I won't!" In time that sin naturally separates us in that perfectly aligned relationship to God in Christ, and over time our hearts will callus up and harden and we will find ourselves no longer hidden in Christ for we will have volitionally walked away from Him intentionally. Then, and only then your sentence would be correct Biblically.

You see, faith isn't dead when it is being trained supposedly. Only in our overt actions which show resolve against wanting to no longer follow God in our actions, will God let our hearts go to that which we love outside of Himself, otherwise He will grip us and love us and be our refuge time and time again, patiently waiting for us to break and be lifted up into His Kingdom permanently. This hope never passes either as we are on planet earth. For we can always repent up until death. This is the redemptive life. But, God tells us we are appointed once to die and be judged, so what we did with what we had opportunity to know and do also will come into play in His judgement of His Children. This is not my role to know or yours it is exclusively His judgement then. But as long as we are in Christ on judgement day, regardless of which room we get of the many in His mansion based on His judgements, we will be in heaven. Now, I was unsure of your meaning so help me if I was off there ok?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey EG,
Thanks for a beautiful testimony.
Want to know something? I never was under legalism.
I Always felt free.

I was born and raised Catholic (I'm Italian). I Always loved God and went to confession as a little girl and to church all the time.
Even when I was about 10 or 11 and my parents didn't take me -- I went by myself. The Church was two blocks from my home in Astoria and this was done back in those days.

The priest used to tell us we had to be good and all that. Every preacher says we have to be good. Even the one at a tiny Assembly of God Church here that I really can't go to because there are only 10 members and the pastor lives very far from here. So that's nothing new.

Anyway, I just felt like God loved me. Then years passsed and I didn't think about God too much. Got married. Had two children. I had my problems. Pretty distraught --- nothing could be done. I started praying to the God I knew, Jesus, and asking Him what I could do. One day while I was in my kitchen in Whitestone NY, He told me what to do. It was almost audible, it was so strong. He put an image in my mind. It helped my problem to go away for more than 30 years.

I was born again at that time and the Catholic Church no longer fulfilled my spiritual needs. So I looked around and went to a Nazarene chuch for about 10 years. As you must know, it's an offshoot of the Methodist Wesleyan Church. They talked about sin and works more than the catholic Church did !! But I trusted my Lord and knew Him and all was OK. I learned a lot there.

I'll stop here because the story would be too long. I just find it funny when posters here tell me I'm legalistic because of my Catholic background. Nothing is further from the truth. There's too much assuming going on instead of asking and discussing. But that's OK with me. I know whom I have believed and have no problem expressing my beliefs.

So you had to find freedom and so find it very important to preach freedom.

I Always was free and condemn no one. Not even those under legalism because even if they are workers for, but are doing it for Jesus, they ARE SAVED. Their doctrine may not be correct, but their soul is saved by our Lord -- not by whether or not they have the correct doctrine in their mind --- as long as they have Jesus in their heart.

I have studied a lot. I find it very important to understand Justification and Sanctification. Our walk is a cooperative effort with God. We do not walk alone, but we do have to walk. God will not force us to do anything we do not want to do. There is no Calvinism in my blood because to believe Calvin is to believe in a different God from the one I serve.

I dont' care for hyper-grace or Word of Faith.
Jesus didn't hang on that cross so some 2,000 years later someone could decide that we must do nothing except believe and not also preach an internal change which must happen if one is saved. They make it sound toooo easy. Easy Believism.

God is an all-good God but He is also a just God. He demands that we obey Him. I don't find any problem with this.

You have done important "works" for God. So why do you speak against works? What do you think works are?

Our life experiences color everything we believe and understand.
The most important fact of Christianity, as I see it, is that we are to love each other.
God IS Love. Those in the Kingdom must share God's love with believers and non-believers.

I'm sorry this was so long.

thanks for the testimony, I always said if I was going to believe in a salvation that was not secure, I would be catholic, they had the most works, were not so hardline, and had the most ways to heaven..lol

i do not like word of faith either, one of those pastors I spoke of was word of faith, it really tore our church up, we really never recovered from that.

Stil ill not sure what hypergrace is, grace is hyper it can not be any more hyper than it is, it is just a term.

but I must ask, again, why do you say or ask why I am against works, we already went through this, I am all for works, jut not for earning or maintaining salvation, that would mean I save myself, and I should get the credit not god.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe God saved us by his grace when we believed. And we can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I also do not believe that the free gift in Eph 2.8-9 is the free gift of God or Jesus's saving faith. I believe the free gift in this verse is salvation. This will be met with resistance by some here, but I do not want it to be a source of contention. I believe saving faith is a form of personal faith.

Since I interpret that a measure of personal saving faith is required to be saved, I also believe that a personal saving faith can be shipwrecked through backsliding, falling out of relationship with Father, falling away due to deception, these are what I believe are by products of failing to abide with Christ and being one with him.

JJesus said in John 17.3-
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

That word know means being intimate or to become one with another. It is actually the Greek word for sexual intercourse and it is the same in the Hebrew rendering.

Abiding is very central to the Gospel message and Jesus preached it extensively, abiding is not works we do or practical righteousness. Abiding is resting in what Jesus has done for you, period.

God offers me eternal covenant relationship.
God does not break covenant with me and I do not "lose" my salvation if I do not perform "works" or obey laws or commands, etc"
I stay in eternal covenant relationship with father, because of my love for him based on all that Jesus did for me and he did alone.
God's love keeps me in the relationship, I would never want to leave the love of Father,
God's side of the eternal covenant relationship never fails and is always there.
This is what I define "eternal security" to be.

I to to believe a persons faith can be shipwrecked, but I believe God keeps his word no matter what.

in fact, the fact we have eternal life according to the apostle john is the reason for our hope as even Paul said in Titus, it is gods promise, the Holy Spirit is the pledge, and if for any reason, God goes back on his word, that's on him..

even if if we are faithless, he is faithful he can not deny himself

he made the unconditional promise nod said he will, we can not break that covenant because we did not fear anything up for e covenant.

i am not Calvinist either, I wonder if people hate osas because they hate Calvinism and their lack of free will stuff. That's why I asked.

My faith was shipwrecked many times as I posted, yet it never went away, I do not believe a person who has true faith, and experienced the true love of God and has the Holy Spirit would ever lose faith, you do not completely lose faith in someone who never lets you down.

God did not let me down, his people did, hope that makes sense,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LGF is right Ariel.

Whatever this thread started out to be, what he says is true.

Works do not bring a person to salvation. It is a free gift.
However, works keep us saved and here lies the disagreement.
You seem to know what sanctification is, but then you can't seem to be able to declare it.

And in Mathew 13: 18-23 if you check again, there are at least two saved persons..
Mathew 13:23
Mathew 13:21 what would you say the person is "falling away" from?

He received the word with joy. Are born again believers that hear the word of God not joyful?

The person in Mathew 22 is questionable.

However the person in 20 and 21 is definitely saved. He HEARS THE WORD AND RECEIVED IT WITH JOY.
THE ROOT IS TEMPORARY. When affliction comes HE FALLS AWAY.

I just want to say

to say works do not do not save but keep us saved are contradictory statements

if a work is required to keep us saved, then we are saved by works. Because our salvation will s not secure until some point in the future, so we really were not saved to begin with.

i hope you take this not as judgemental, but sincere discussion

 

[dcontroversal]

I to to believe a persons faith can be shipwrecked, but I believe God keeps his word no matter what.

in fact, the fact we have eternal life according to the apostle john is the reason for our hope as even Paul said in Titus, it is gods promise, the Holy Spirit is the pledge, and if for any reason, God goes back on his word, that's on him..

even if if we are faithless, he is faithful he can not deny himself

he made the unconditional promise nod said he will, we can not break that covenant because we did not fear anything up for e covenant.

i am not Calvinist either, I wonder if people hate osas because they hate Calvinism and their lack of free will stuff. That's why I asked.

My faith was shipwrecked many times as I posted, yet it never went away, I do not believe a person who has true faith, and experienced the true love of God and has the Holy Spirit would ever lose faith, you do not completely lose faith in someone who never lets you down.

God did not let me down, his people did, hope that makes sense,

I agree....salvation is eternal and it cannot be lost nor forfeit by what men may or may not do.....The promise is of God and if men can alleviate the promises of God and or negate the eternal life found in Christ then God is weak and cannot keep his word.....

Obviously I believe he can and does.......!

 

[dcontroversal]

I just want to say

to say works do not do not save but keep us saved are contradictory statements

if a work is required to keep us saved, then we are saved by works. Because our salvation will s not secure until some point in the future, so we really were not saved to begin with.

i hope you take this not as judgemental, but sincere discussion

Paul is clear...it is of grace and is not of works....if of works it is no longer grace....

belief to gain and is eternal<----grace

works to gain or keep<--works and not of grace

End of story!

 

[dcontroversal]

The first attempt by man to cover himself and his sin by works is found in Adam.....leaves and hiding....both were dismal failures

GOD was the one who covered ADAM's sin by the shedding of BLOOD and a COVER MADE BY GOD....ADAM had NO HAND in that deal....it was ALL GOD and GOD who restored fellowship....