Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - I understand you better. You are very task oriented. You like your theology in precise
boxes and this is what you believe and nothing else. Generalities are not acceptable to you.

So no one can ever present your position. That is certainly one way of looking at things.
Not very helpful and rather combative.

Now truly I do not need a lecture from a school teacher as if you are responsible for me.
It is neither appropriate or respectful.

my theology is easy, people all over this room present my position every day. You can not see it, Because you have no desire to.

Second, I do not care of you think you do not need corrected or not. People correct those who are in error.

The fact is, You do not accept correction from anyone, People have spent months trying to correct you in this same area. Yet you refuse to acknowledge.

But thats beside the point again, I am not gonna try anymore, I am just going to expose problems with your theology and leave it at that.

Now the device you refuse to accept is to summarise a position, and then say why you
ones own position is different. You literally hate this approach. But it is how one debates
and contrasts. You cannot contrast a point with an empty space.

Dude I ]have summarized my position so many times, I lost count.

The fact you refuse to understand it is the issue, Which leads to your error when you try to summarize a position.

Let me say it like this, imagine I like "german shepherd dogs" and you like "retriever dogs"
I would then contrast the two dogs to show why I prefer this over that.
It is just a device to show preference.

You take it as an insult, a slander, a slur, or whatever.
When will you ever learn how to think the best of others and they are not
out to get you or be evil or destroy you.

God bless you, my Christ our Lord and King fill you with His love and grace so
you can but love all you meet, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

Thats the problem right there. Where you see a German shepherd, (if that is what you are trying to say we are) in reality is a different bread, But you can nbot see that, because you either have been told for your whole life it is a German shepherd, or you have just hardened your hearty and determined on your own it is on.

Either way YOUR WRONG.

And even though so many people have tried to how you over and over that to be the case. You refuse to see it.

 

[JIMBO43]

the answer is yes a nation can be born in a day via Good works from a preacher through Jesus....

 

[JIMBO43]

God answers the prayer of faith.... my faith is to stand by my redeemer...

 

[stonesoffire]

Rom 8:18　 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed to us.　


Rom 8:19　 For the creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of God's children,
　
Rom 8:20　 because the creation has become subject to futility, though not by anything it did. The one who subjected it did so in the certainty
　
Rom 8:21　 that the creation itself would also be set free from corrupting bondage in order to share the glorious freedom of God's children.　


Rom 8:22　 For we know that all the rest of creation has been groaning with the pains of childbirth up to the present time.　


Rom 8:23　 However, not only the creation, but we who have the first fruits of the Spirit also groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.　

We the saved are waiting for the final work of God in our life. What we call the rapture.

But, the works that we "do" in this world are for the salvation of others, not ourselves.

Not sure if this is what you mean't Jimbo.

 

[JIMBO43]

This is also a works that keeps me saved... standing by my redeemer is a works,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Is there anything to hard for those who believe.......... lets start praying for one another... its just a shame someone didnt hear my prayer last night...

 

[JIMBO43]

Rom 8:18　 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed to us.　


Rom 8:19　 For the creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of God's children,
　
Rom 8:20　 because the creation has become subject to futility, though not by anything it did. The one who subjected it did so in the certainty
　
Rom 8:21　 that the creation itself would also be set free from corrupting bondage in order to share the glorious freedom of God's children.　


Rom 8:22　 For we know that all the rest of creation has been groaning with the pains of childbirth up to the present time.　


Rom 8:23　 However, not only the creation, but we who have the first fruits of the Spirit also groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.　

We the saved are waiting for the final work of God in our life. What we call the rapture.

But, the works that we "do" in this world are for the salvation of others, not ourselves.

Not sure if this is what you mean't Jimbo.

I like this because this proves that the works we do can save............enough said...........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I like this because this proves that the works we do can save............enough said...........

I like this because it proves he believes the cross is not enough. And that we must work to save ourselves.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is also a works that keeps me saved... standing by my redeemer is a works,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Is there anything to hard for those who believe.......... lets start praying for one another... its just a shame someone didnt hear my prayer last night...

Your redeemer stands next to you, he is your shepherd who will keep you, and retr9iev you if you fall away from. The pack.
It so saddens me that people want to take glory away from God

 

[stonesoffire]

Jimbo

Have you ever done a topical study on the words "in Christ"?

Might help you.

 

[BillG]

Jesus said

Matthew 11:28-30
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

What is the yoke we have?
Why is he willing to take this yoke?
Why is his yoke easy?

How does he he give us rest, what is this rest?

 

[PeterJens]

my theology is easy, people all over this room present my position every day. You can not see it, Because you have no desire to.

eg - You crack me up. You write line upon line without content, rebuking me about refusing
something but not saying what.
You cannot take a believer and convert them, because they already know Christ.
Now in theory we have the same theology, except you believe in future sin forgiven.
You are also touchy about security. What you fail to listen is I am secure in the cross.
Like I am secure in the love of my wife.

But without your specific variations I know nothing. Must be the legalist in you. I am
prepared to accept you at face value as a brother, and always have. Now you never ask
me why? But I will answer anyway, because I trust Gods hand in everybodies life and I am
just called to shine and not judge.

Now I came blessed and full of the Lord to cc, not in desperate need or vulnerability.
But you have taught me to be open and allow to be hurt and turn the other cheek and
carry on. Its an important lesson in the walk of love.

So my friend, God bless you, may the Lord work through and in you and you find rest
in Him.

 

[PeterJens]

Thats amazing. I heard the testimony of a man who was being baptised. He was on the edge of cliff in his car, about to put his foot down. He cried out to God, "If you are who say you are I need to know now" he heard nothing, he then turned the ignition, put the car in first gear. As he did that his phone wrang. He turned the engine off, answered his phone and it was an old college friend, one who they talked occasionally with but not had heard from for a while.

His friend is a Christian and he said it him, I know we haven't spoken for a while but I just felt I needed to call you"

What an amazing God we have.

Last month I had the privilege of baptising someone who I led to Christ (I say me but not me but he Holy Spirit).
This guy who is bipolar tried to take his life a few times. When it failed and he would up he was gutted he was still alive.

He believed in God and Jesus, only in Jesus as a good man. Over the weeks we walked and talked. Then he asked to meet me and talk.

Anyway during our conversation he was very emotional and asked "What is my disconnect? I just said Jesus, he is your connection to Jesus"

Then it hit him. I saw a broken man on his knees bearing his heart (and he didn't hold it back) to Jesus.
Part of his concourse was "Jesus I am f***up, I need you" I give all I have and am to you"

When we finished and he looked at me I saw a totally different man, his face changed, everything about him was different. I saw Jesus in him.

Now he says "I am so thankful that God protected me when I tried to take my life, he saved me for this time"

What an amazing God we have.

Wow. What a privilege. To see what you have seen is rare. But you know this.
I think it humbles us to see how profound coming to see Jesus is and how He fills us.

What is sad is people who go to this desperate place find life when their life seems so
empty. I have always hoped people would reach out before things get so desperate.

But maybe few open up enough to let go and let God. I know how much it took for
me to get there. It always makes me wonder about people who talk about it being
simple. Dying to self is the hardest thing a human can ever do.

God bless you

 

[BillG]

Wow. What a privilege. To see what you have seen is rare. But you know this.
I think it humbles us to see how profound coming to see Jesus is and how He fills us.

What is sad is people who go to this desperate place find life when their life seems so
empty. I have always hoped people would reach out before things get so desperate.

But maybe few open up enough to let go and let God. I know how much it took for
me to get there. It always makes me wonder about people who talk about it being
simple. Dying to self is the hardest thing a human can ever do.

God bless you

\
It sure was a privilege, and to be honest I felt so humbled. I found myself saying to God "Why on earth have you used me?
The guy I was talking about had walked with other people in the church who were part of the process but he says to me "Whoever got you involved played a blinder, I was what you needed" Truth is everyone who played a part was what he needed"

I think like you, I hope that people reach out before things get desperate. I don't want them in pain and suffering.
It does perplex me but I come to the conclusion that if a person is broken and desperate and calls out to Jesus then he answers.

Then he uses them to help others who were just like they were.

If Jesus clicked his fingers and said it's done what use would they be to others that are struggling.

Not much, but to have someone say "I know what it's like, I've been their, got the t-shirt but Jesus set me free, I'm willing to walk with you.

Its humbling that God works good in us and our failings to conform us to the image of Christ to walk like Christ to those he has given us.

 

[Ariel82]

hypergrace, as spoken by the people who preach it believes the same gospel as you. Where they go off is on word of faith.. But the wof doctrine is about healing and getting things, not salvation.

No some people are labeled hyper grace who aren't.

Hyper grace doctrine is actually heresy of easy believism and word of Faith...it may be a straw man but let me find some articles.

I reject Hyper grace as I know it has been defined.

I don't know if G777 is hyper grace or not but I do know some of the people he quotes are definitely hyper grace. He also tends to defend WOF preachers.

We do have folks who accept and identify with word of Faith. I know of at least 5 members who have bought into the wealth and health false gospel. Hopefully they will come out of it.

Anyway let me research and then get back to this girl scout campout.

 

[Ariel82]

1. Where did you get this from? I think your twisting again. I do not see where it was posted

2. Please stop it. You blame everyone for misunderstanding you, When you continually prove you misunderstand them.

He thinks hyper grace is a lictenious doctrine and he thinks G777 teaches hyper grace.

Found theses 2 articles...don't have time to look for more.

What is Hyper-grace And Why Is It Controversial? | Julie Roys

The idea of progressive sanctification — that believers, with the help of the Holy Spirit, go through a process that gradually separates them from the evil of the world to be more and more like Christ — is dismissed by hyper-grace teachers as legalism. Instead, they believe that a holy life will be a byproduct of God’s grace.

8 Signs of 'Hypergrace' Churches — Charisma News

 

[BillG]

No some people are labeled hyper grace who aren't.

Hyper grace doctrine is actually heresy of easy believism and word of Faith...it may be a straw man but let me find some articles.

I reject Hyper grace as I know it has been defined.

I don't know if G777 is hyper grace or not but I do know some of the people he quotes are definitely hyper grace. He also tends to defend WOF preachers.

We do have folks who accept and identify with word of Faith. I know of at least 5 members who have bought into the wealth and health false gospel. Hopefully they will come out of it.

Anyway let me research and then get back to this girl scout campout.

I have to be honest here.

When I started to come back to church I really wanted to know what the grace of `God was all about. I had no idea what it was.
I was brow beaten with legalistic behaviour.

So I googled Gods grace and found myself on E2R (Paul Eliis, his website)

As I read posts I started to see something I was missing and stuff I didn't quite get or agree with.

I e-mailed Paul and bless him we talked over a period of months.

He walked with me and talked with me, no condemnation but just loved me.

One thing I learned was that it's all about Jesus and what he has done and not what I need to do to be saved.

So in a sense he has helped me.

Now that does not mean I am a Hyper-gracer, or a WOF believer.

I am not a name it and claim it guy when it comes to temporal things, I am a name it and claim it Jesus.

I am not a claim it and use grace to allow me to sin. I know my sin and hate it, but I ask God to help me in my struggle with sin.
When I get it wrong I come before God with a heavy heart and say "Got it wrong and I'm sorry, please help me not to abuse your grace"

 

[PeterJens]

"You can not see it" "you have no desire to."
"I do not care" "People correct those who are in error. "
"You do not accept correction from anyone" "trying to correct you"
"Yet you refuse to acknowledge."
"I am just going to expose problems with your theology"
"you refuse to understand it is the issue" "your error when you try to summarize a position."
"But you can nbot see that" "you have just hardened your hearty"
"YOUR WRONG. "
"You refuse to see it. "

These are all attitude criticisms. Attacking attitude without content is just personal abuse.
The victim cannot respond because there is nothing to respond to or even offer up.
It is just pummeling someone against a wall. Very unusual behaviour for evangelism.

Take the lead from Bill who is a good brother in Christ. We are just sharers of the treasure
within, and some take encouragement from us, but we are always sinners saved by grace,
saints in need of filling.

To reach hearts we need to be Christ to those around, servants who can see and encourage
and be with others.

 

[Ariel82]

There is a difference between hyper grace and biblical grace but I have to go camping with 8 girl scouts so be back when they are busy.

 

[BillG]

There is a difference between hyper grace and biblical grace but I have to go camping with 8 girl scouts so be back when they are busy.

Oh dear your gonna need all that grace God has given you

 

[PeterJens]

I have to be honest here.

When I started to come back to church I really wanted to know what the grace of `God was all about. I had no idea what it was.
I was brow beaten with legalistic behaviour.

So I googled Gods grace and found myself on E2R (Paul Eliis, his website)

As I read posts I started to see something I was missing and stuff I didn't quite get or agree with.

I e-mailed Paul and bless him we talked over a period of months.

He walked with me and talked with me, no condemnation but just loved me.

One thing I learned was that it's all about Jesus and what he has done and not what I need to do to be saved.

So in a sense he has helped me.

Now that does not mean I am a Hyper-gracer, or a WOF believer.

I am not a name it and claim it guy when it comes to temporal things, I am a name it and claim it Jesus.

I am not a claim it and use grace to allow me to sin. I know my sin and hate it, but I ask God to help me in my struggle with sin.
When I get it wrong I come before God with a heavy heart and say "Got it wrong and I'm sorry, please help me not to abuse your grace"

Hey Bill,

I like a lot of the grace camps get real, let God, be accepted.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit for me is the overwhelming feeling of love and acceptance
from God. Linked with a loving walk, and praise to God, halleluyah.

The fly in the ointment was this hatred of believers, antagonism, accusations of malice
or the worst adjectives possible. I just have never come across this before and is so
very out of place.

The truth is people are bound in rules and regulations and not in open hearted love, but
open hearted love is difficult if you are emotionally closed down and shut out.
It is why Bill I connected with you, and not with most of the others.

One either has grown to this place or one is blind to it. Unfortunately it is mainly walking
wounded, who need some tender care but mostly some honesty about their state and
crying out to God.

So for me it is this emotional story that speaks louder than the theological one.
Jesus is emotional, he speaks to the not so bright and the highest interlectuals and
still it comes out right. This is why I do not relate to the legalistic line, because that
has never been me.

For me I see holiness as our walk, purity as our emblem, love as our outworking.
You will probably hate this, but you are probably one of the most spiritual guys here.

So God bless you brother.