Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

Here is a a big problem with this forum in general.

You state:

People who don't understand this teaching have within their minds spiritual strongholds that war against God's wisdom and grace.

The above statement is made with regard to eternal security.
When you say "People who don't", you're, in effect, setting yourself up as the ultimate authority when, in fact, you are not.

What you can say is why you believe in eternals security and explain why you think the other person is wrong, but you cannot set yourself up as the authority.

This is YOUR opinion.

Earlier on in this thread, I posted about 15 early Church theologians who believed that salvation can be lost. One of them knew John the Apostle personally.

Don't you believe they would know more about this than You?

So, yes. We can give our opinion, but we cannot say that those who DO NOT AGREE with us DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

Fran

One can know about the Lord and think that makes them His, but Jesus said we must be born of water and Spirit to enter the kingdom. One like this thinks works that make them good. Still the wrong tree.

One born from above...grace is at work. Eating from the tree of life.

 

[stonesoffire]

You are welcome, Stones of Fire. I wondered if you also maybe meant this: Amos 9:11-15

In that day
“I will restore David’s fallen shelter—
I will repair its broken walls
and restore its ruins—
and will rebuild it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name,”
declares the Lord, who will do these things.

13 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills,
14 and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.

“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”

says the Lord your God.

I've heard where some have likened the tabernacle of David to the church. But, this scripture speaks to me of the nation of Israel. And I've never understood that message of the tabernacle. Have you?

 

[stonesoffire]

My husband is in the other room singing to Jesus. If you knew our marriage and how it was in the beginning...and where it is now...you would know grace.

Makes me cry with love to Him.

 

[Magenta]

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[BillG]

This would all be Good if you are worthy coz you have to be drawn to the son by the father first..

This is why there will be many unsaved people in the last days..........coz God will not offer up his son to just about anyone.... or will he is that your take too or is it mine ?

That seems to be your take.

I wouldn't say that given

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Truth is we have no idea who is saved and who is not. Therefore we are not to judge that.

But from my viewpoint that promise will continue to be offered until God says "That's it folks time up"

You are right in one thing that there will be many unsaved people and to me it's not to do with God not offering up his son to just about anyone but it is a result of people not accepting the promise given in the above verses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If they rebelled against their foundation...it wouldn't be their FOUNDATION.

so simple to understand, Yet some just can not get it..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow, another good statement! A christian's whole life must be lived by grace thru faith!

How can we do that if we are constantly told we live by works, By obedience, By live to this standard or else.. If we do not live up to said standard, we will lose salvation.

People preach grace through faith, but sadly, they have no idea what it means.

 

[FranC]

We interrupt this message for a slight refreshment break........................................

Matthew 7:3-5 New International Version (NIV)

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Alrighty then .....We return you to your regularly scheduled programming.....>

So, remind me; what is it each is trying to offer in Gods economy here? The simple titles of which...are?

Trying to make those reading along think.
Trying to tell them to depend on the bible and not on anyone else.
I would like to get across that we ARE required to do SOMETHING. Whatever that is depends on the person. We are each different.
This is why it's called a Personal Relationship.
I'd like to warn everyone to stay with Jesus all their life since sanctification is an ongoing process and is not concluded till the end of life.

That's why I'M here.

This is how I was taught by two different churces. This is how what I say is understood by some people I know...who really know.

I just hope new Christians are encouraged by knowing that Jesus loves them and that everything they do in life is a gift to Him who did so much for them.

This post is also for those reading along.

 

[stonesoffire]

When we see that unbelief is disobedience...a stiff necked people...then we see that faith is obedience.

 

[Stephen63]

Some folks can't handle being wrong or conflict of any type.

I have seen it with small kids. They retreat into their safe zone. Mostly it's with kids from broken homes where their parents fight a lot and yell at each other.

We never know what is going on in someone else's life.

This is true. I've known some who because they were neglected as a child or were spoiled as an only child they had to be at the center of everything. They would do the craziest things just to be noticed.

 

[Magenta]

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[NoNameMcgee]

Hi NNM

I'm halfway through that youtube video.
The guy is good. I like him.
He explains everything well, except it really is difficult to get a handle on what it means that the Law was not aboished, we are not under the Law, and yet we still have to obey it.

I wonder if you know that there were three types of Law in the O.T.:
Civil Law
Ceremonial Law
Moral Law

Only the Moral Law remains. It's absolutely imperative that it does because God is moral, just like God is love. He IS. Not like it's a part of him... HE IS IT.

I like how he explained WHY we have the Law.

I hope he gets into the Covenants in some talk of his. This really helps people to understand the Law and the difference between the Old or Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. I like that he explained that the Mosaic Covenant did not abolish the Abrahamic Covenant but built upon it. Every covenant builds upon the previouis one.

Keep listening. I think it's great.

im not 100% everything HE knows but i looked into the old law


incase mockers try to say im wrong for eating pork (dietary laws too)
or wearing mixed fabrics
or not stoning people



im not jewish or held to a theocracy


the law of my land is different

christians follow Jesus
not the law of moses

 

[NoNameMcgee]

https://youtu.be/37cvFmPwIh4


magentaaaaa

help me plzzz i want this in video

 

[FranC]

Yes, Because many seem to think that is not true, they hold that we can be glorified on earth. ad preach it daily.. You must not read many threads.
You're right. I don't read many threads. Why should I? You think it's nice to be arguing about what God's plan is?
I came to a forum for a specific reaon. I have found what I was looking for, but not here. I desired to speak to people about God --- the reason is irrlevant. Instead what do we do? Put each other down. This is not edifying - it's not what Jesus wanted. He said that we're all to be as one. We are all baptized into one body. And this is how we should act. It's gotten a bit better since I first came on - someone here is very upset, but God will have to deal with that, not me. I'm glad that you and I are able to speak and not yell at each other.


So it is not possible, but it is possible.. Which is it?

I said I believe it is not possible to be sanctified in this life; however, I'm not prepred to say it's IMPOSSIBLE.
you know what they say, many things are improbable, but nothing is impossible. I know some monks who MIGHT be sanctified at the end of their life, but who am I to really know?


So you believe that sanctification has no bearing on ones eternal life? That is news to me, have I misunderstood you all this time?

No. You've understood. In the process of Sanctification, our co-operation is imperative. God will not Do this phase of our salvation all by Himself. We are REQUIRED to participate.

Since I believe in loss of salvation if one abandons God, they would lose both S and J.
One cannot be J if he denies God and does not want to be a part of he Kingdom.
No Never claimed to be


Apart from Grace, Yes, thats is Gods standard. Reject the cross, and this is where you will stand on judgment day,, ps.. NO ONE WILL MAKE IT. (Only Christ fulfilled this requirement)

I asked you if you were perfect. I cannot remember why. NO ONE is perfect so I must have been headed somewhere but got left back at the bakery.

Because God is a just God, and he demands perfect standing, which all have sinned, are sinning and will sin, so no one can make it, So he had a plan. His son and the cross was that plan.. His love can win out, because his justice can be satisfied by his sons death (also called expiation, atonement and redemption)

Amen!


[/QUOTE

 

[NoNameMcgee]

a ps to fran

im sure i could still learn a lot more about the law of moses
haha
hope i dont sound like a know it all from how i said that

 

[BillG]

Cheap grace is for those lazy so-&-so's that rebel from commitment, obedience, & the Lordship of Christ.

They want a savior, but not a Lord. Jesus can only come into your heart & save you as a packaged dead.

I would say that actually there is no such things as cheap grace.

We actually know the grace offered by God came as a result of a great price paid.

I would say it's actually treating Grace cheaply.

I think this is what Paul addressed

Romans 5:20 - 6:2


Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

He then goes on to reveal the price

Romans 6:3-4
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The death of Jesus.

I have actually sin this in action myself.

A couple I knew were sleeping together before marriage with the attitude of "It's ok we are forgiven or will be forgiven"

Shocking attitude.

Part of of the problem today is that maybe the church is not preaching to price paid for grace and what it truly means to be a follower of Jesus.

But we need to separate what true saving faith is and what is not and as we can see there are differences of opinion.

Having said that though to me it can happen that people do not walk in the way of the commitment they have said they made BUT that doesn't necessarily mean they are not saved.

We need to come alongside and find out why.

My very simple example for me was before I became a Christian I used to read my horoscope. I became a Christian but still read my horoscope. When someone realised this (because I said to them "my horoscope said today) he took me to task, in a loving way.

I think further that if a person does stumble the Father will pick them up.

One thing I have seen and concerns me is that there is lack of true Christian birthing process.
What it actually means to be a believer and a true believer would never Jesus as a one way ticket to heaven regardless of what we do without regard to him.

 

[Ariel82]

Here is a a big problem with this forum in general.

You state:

People who don't understand this teaching have within their minds spiritual strongholds that war against God's wisdom and grace.

The above statement is made with regard to eternal security.
When you say "People who don't", you're, in effect, setting yourself up as the ultimate authority when, in fact, you are not.

What you can say is why you believe in eternals security and explain why you think the other person is wrong, but you cannot set yourself up as the authority.

This is YOUR opinion.

Earlier on in this thread, I posted about 15 early Church theologians who believed that salvation can be lost. One of them knew John the Apostle personally.

Don't you believe they would know more about this than You?

So, yes. We can give our opinion, but we cannot say that those who DO NOT AGREE with us DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

Appeals to authority is a logical fallacy.

There is one truth God's.

I can tell you what I believe God's truth is and you can tell me what you believe God's truth is.

You hear the words eternal security and automatically build up this false doctrine strawmen you don't agree with in your head.

Can you tell me what I mean when I say eternal security?

I have told you, but were you listening?

So far the main objections to accepting the doctrine of eternal security is

1. What it means to fall away
2. Beliefs it leads to a sinful life style
3. Misunderstanding what the doctrine actually teaches or learning a false doctrine taught by a false teacher with the same name.

Are there more?

 

[PeterJens]

Make no mistake about it - there is an all out war against the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection. But the earth shall be filled with the glory/goodness and knowledge of the Lord in these last days.

Lets get it right. The grace specialists are declaring war, no one else is because
there version of faith has no power or godliness.

And that means it is irrelevant. End of story.

 

[BillG]

I would say that actually there is no such things as cheap grace.

We actually know the grace offered by God came as a result of a great price paid.

I would say it's actually treating Grace cheaply.

I think this is what Paul addressed

Romans 5:20 - 6:2


Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

He then goes on to reveal the price

Romans 6:3-4
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The death of Jesus.

I have actually sin this in action myself.

A couple I knew were sleeping together before marriage with the attitude of "It's ok we are forgiven or will be forgiven"

Shocking attitude.

Part of of the problem today is that maybe the church is not preaching to price paid for grace and what it truly means to be a follower of Jesus.

But we need to separate what true saving faith is and what is not and as we can see there are differences of opinion.

Having said that though to me it can happen that people do not walk in the way of the commitment they have said they made BUT that doesn't necessarily mean they are not saved.

We need to come alongside and find out why.

My very simple example for me was before I became a Christian I used to read my horoscope. I became a Christian but still read my horoscope. When someone realised this (because I said to them "my horoscope said today) he took me to task, in a loving way.

I think further that if a person does stumble the Father will pick them up.

One thing I have seen and concerns me is that there is lack of true Christian birthing process.
What it actually means to be a believer and a true believer would never Jesus as a one way ticket to heaven regardless of what we do without regard to him.

Ooh ooh I need to clarify

I have actually sin this in action myself.

I meant to say "I have actually this in action myself"

 

[Stephen63]

The term "cheap grace" has also been used by some that believe we can lose salvation and thus if someone believes that Jesus is not a liar when He said "The Holy Spirit will be in you forever". John 14:16 - they need to come up with a derogatory term to attack those that believe in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

Translation: People that talk against "cheap grace" are attackers & don't believe in Christ's work on the cross, nor the resurrection.

My, what a horrific judgment call, saying we're going to hell. Where else can we go with a judgment like that?

This is very unfortunate because it cost our Lord Jesus Christ the shedding of His blood and His life on this earth to save us. He is the Savior - not us.

Make no mistake about it - there is an all out war against the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection. But the earth shall be filled with the glory/goodness and knowledge of the Lord in these last days.

Translation: We "sinners" are at war with the cheap gracers, and cheap grace is our salvation, not what the Bible says.

God's goodness & glory shall fill the Earth during the Falling Away.

If you can't see thru that it's cause you don't want to.