Not By Works

[Katy-follower]

Yes Katy. Context. So what's wrong with what I posted??

What do you think Jesus meant when He said that EVERY TREE THAT DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT IS CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE?

THEREFORE BY THEIR FRUITS YOU WILL KNOW THEM.

Fran, look more closely at my post to see what is being confirmed. Here it is again....

V15-19: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


A tree with no good fruit is thrown into the fire
A good tree does not bear bad fruit
A bad tree does not bear good fruit


Therefore....... the tree being thrown into the fire is the one that was bad all along, since a bad tree does not bear good fruit. This isn't a believer losing salvation.

 

[blue_ladybug]

I dunno what she's trying to earn.. she don't believe in eternal salvation anyway, sooo without that, there wouldn't be much point in trying to get into heaven.. I agree with MMD. The RCC has done a real job on her mind.

Nothing confusing about my post....read it carefully and maybe you can see the truth and difference....here let me help again....

WORKS DO NOT SAVE, KEEP SAVED, FACILLITATE SALVATION.....

Salvation is based upon GRACE AND FAITH VOID OF ANY HUMAN WORK, MERIT OR EFFORT

Did that clear it up for you or are you still trying to EARN YOUR WAY

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Fran, look more closely at my post to see what is being confirmed. Here it is again....

V15-19: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


A tree with no good fruit is thrown into the fire
A good tree does not bear bad fruit
A bad tree does not bear good fruit


Therefore....... the tree being thrown into the fire is the one that was bad all along, since a bad tree does not bear good fruit. This isn't a believer losing salvation.

if someone has a form of Godlyness
someone has faith
and grows in the Word
becomes a preacher
gets rid of worldly movies and vain thing
teaches his family to read the Word and prays daily
cries over God daily
but doesnt repent or does in an untrue way only to return to sin

i could agree they never accepted Jesus or were bad fruit to begin with

but to anyone other than God
it would appear they fell away
lost their salvation would it not?


my uncle in his prime
was outwordly a Jesus loving man and a preacher

even experienced a miracle in recovering from a fire which burned 80% of his flesh (needing many skin graphs to appear close to normal)
doctors saying he may die at first
then would never walk again
lose the use of his hands

to in very little time being able to run and use his hands as good as ever
still growing in height past the age of 28

now hes a wicked man who no longer proclaims Jesus is his savior
always playing rock music and grew his hair out
quit preaching (obviously)
spends his time going to gyms and working out or chasing women

i thought he fell away
but maybe he never loved God
just feared him

then quit .... never being one of Gods children to begin with?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

also wanna add that fire may have been a sign and his name origin means (born of fire)

 

[NoNameMcgee]

also wanna add that fire may have been a sign and his name origin means (born of fire)

found this out trying to show his son who is named after him and also who no longer proclaims Jesus as savior
the truth

with a witness (non believer) who is his friend


we ended up lookin what the origins of our names are


his friends name meant wolf
my cousin like my uncle was born of fire
and my name was friend of great wealth


felt like a sign to me
i got goosbumps

they thought it was funny

 

[NoNameMcgee]

my cousin and uncle are kenny or kennith hill

my name is eduin jaime martinez

if u wanna look for yourself [ think its our first names]

 

[Ariel82]

if someone has a form of Godlyness
someone has faith
and grows in the Word
becomes a preacher
gets rid of worldly movies and vain thing
teaches his family to read the Word and prays daily
cries over God daily
but doesnt repent or does in an untrue way only to return to sin

i could agree they never accepted Jesus or were bad fruit to begin with

but to anyone other than God
it would appear they fell away
lost their salvation would it not?


my uncle in his prime
was outwordly a Jesus loving man and a preacher

even experienced a miracle in recovering from a fire which burned 80% of his flesh (needing many skin graphs to appear close to normal)
doctors saying he may die at first
then would never walk again
lose the use of his hands

to in very little time being able to run and use his hands as good as ever
still growing in height past the age of 28

now hes a wicked man who no longer proclaims Jesus is his savior
always playing rock music and grew his hair out
quit preaching (obviously)
spends his time going to gyms and working out or chasing women

i thought he fell away
but maybe he never loved God
just feared him

then quit .... never being one of Gods children to begin with?

No one knows. If He is God's child, he will be convicted and repent. If not,he will die in his sins.

What exactly is his sin?

Music,hair, working out are all alright.

Even chasing women is okay unless he has sex with them.

The whole being made a preacher before being mature in Christ sounds more the fault of whoever ordained him.
I wonder if he was taught and taught a legalistic gospel?

Some people never hear the pure gospel message and only took themselves and others about being saved.

Everyone I have met says "I can't do it anymore on my own"

God tells us " you don't have to do it alone,i am with you"

Do we listen? The signs are all around us of God's love.

 

[Ariel82]

I dunno what she's trying to earn.. she don't believe in eternal salvation anyway, sooo without that, there wouldn't be much point in trying to get into heaven.. I agree with MMD. The RCC has done a real job on her mind.

You are probably gonna get mad at me, but gossiping doesn't help the situation. It just makes the other person mad.

If you have something to say, you should say it to the person. Not talk about her to another person.

You would expect the same respect, at least I would.

It always annoyed me when people talk about me as if I wasn't there. Even if they were saying good things,but especially if they said bad things,

Most of the time I walk away or ignore these type of posts, but I thought the goal of this conversation was to talk to Fran about the Gospel?

Or maybe not?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

No one knows. If He is God's child, he will be convicted and repent. If not,he will die in his sins.

What exactly is his sin?

Music,hair, working out are all alright.

Even chasing women is okay unless he has sex with them.

The whole being made a preacher before being mature in Christ sounds more the fault of whoever ordained him.
I wonder if he was taught and taught a legalistic gospel?

Some people never hear the pure gospel message and only took themselves and others about being saved.

Everyone I have met says "I can't do it anymore on my own"

God tells us " you don't have to do it alone,i am with you"

Do we listen? The signs are all around us of God's love.

i dont want to gossip so im keeping it minimum
chasing women lustfully after being divorced is not alright

also i dunno how much sex he has but i know thats the point of chasing

long hair and working out is to aid his vanity

and i disagree with you on the worldly music and love there of


if its of the world and not of God

cant tell me ozzy ozborn or led zeplin arent wicked


ive seen the fruits ariel lol i wouldnt bring these up if they werent unholy


(though i appreciate your optimism and agree God can still save him)

 

[Ariel82]

What?

Of course "spongebobs" post is relevant to what we're speaking about...

Here it is again, please read it and tell us WHY it is not relevant...:

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


HE dispenses this power through the Spirit of grace, the Comforter, to those that keep His commandments, John 14-15 ……

by SUBMITTING to the Spirit of grace and His influencing power working in you does one overcome the willful vile sins of the flesh. (it's He that worketh in you for His good pleasure

while at the same time we strive to work out our own salvation, Phill. 2:13,12)...


when Jesus speaks something (a command for an example) it becomes a reality, lest He is just fooling around when He commands us to repent and forsake our former ways, and says the servant of sin abides not in the house forever..

Because learning to live godly lives happens AFTER people are saved and are given the Holy Spirit.

Before you are saved you may try and live by the law,but you fail over and over again.

Only when you accept that Jesus died on the cross for the remission of your sins, rose again and ascended into Heaven...can you receive the Holy Spirit, which will teach you wisdom and convict you when you sin and tell you that you are a child of God.

Does the Holy Spirit tell you that you are a child of God?

 

[Ariel82]

I don't know, i typically listen to gospel music and only exposed to secular music when i ride in someoxne else's car or my kids play it at home....both of which will change the channel if the song has drug or profanity in it...I live a rather sheltered musical life, lol.

Divorce can really hurt the soul, will keep him and his ex wife in prayer.

PS wasn't trying to gossip just say that some times people out more rules on themselves and others that God doesn't require. All He wants is your love and a humble a,d contrite heart.
.sometimes some people have to refrain from certain activities, but it's for the individual. For example alcoholic should not drink or go to a bar and be tempted.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I don't know, i typically listen to gospel music and only exposed to secular music when i ride in someoxne else's car or my kids play it at home....both of which will change the channel if the song has drug or profanity in it...I live a rather sheltered musical life, lol.

hahaha i feel you there
God bless you
i try to shelter myself from these things now

but before the awful things are what i took pleasure in
so i understand them very well

 

[blue_ladybug]

Ariel, it isn't gossip at all. I don't do gossip. She stated in more than one post on here that she doesn't believe in eternal salvation or eternal security. And I wasn't talking about her to another person. I put my post right here on the board for her to see and respond to if she wants..

People have tried talking to her about the Gospel. We've gone round and round many times. It's hard to teach the gospel to someone who does NOT believe that works don't save us, and that we don't have eternal salvation. :/

I have shaken off the dust with Fran. I just don't have the patience to teach someone who refuses to listen.

Am I incorrect, or is the whole bible not centered on how we get eternal salvation? I mean that's why Jesus DID die, right?

You are probably gonna get mad at me, but gossiping doesn't help the situation. It just makes the other person mad.

If you have something to say, you should say it to the person. Not talk about her to another person.

You would expect the same respect, at least I would.

It always annoyed me when people talk about me as if I wasn't there. Even if they were saying good things,but especially if they said bad things,

Most of the time I walk away or ignore these type of posts, but I thought the goal of this conversation was to talk to Fran about the Gospel?

Or maybe not?

 

[Ariel82]

The desires of the flesh have more power than Jesus??? That is a works based religious Reformation doctrine. Nay, may God forbid such foolishness!

To those who perceive that they must sin is only because they put their faith in the power of the flesh over the power of Christ, of whom has been given ALL POWER over flesh in heaven and earth. Jesus has already bound the strongman and his goods/sin. . HE dispenses this power through the Spirit of grace, the Comforter, to those that keep His commandments, John 14-15 …… by SUBMITTING to the Spirit of grace and His influencing power working in you does one overcome the willful vile sins of the flesh. (it's He that worketh in you for His good pleasure while at the same time we strive to work out our own salvation, Phill. 2:13,12)...when Jesus speaks something (a command for an example) it becomes a reality, lest He is just fooling around when He commands us to repent and forsake our former ways, and says the servant of sin abides not in the house forever..

The first statement is a strawmen..

NO ONE SAYS THAT!

The second is a flat out lie.

The rest is a fire to burn your fake straw man.

The last bold statement, shows your lack of understanding.

.THOSE WHO ARE SLAVES TO SIN NEVER MADE IT INTO THE HEAVENLY HOME, they will be destroyed in this earth and were never adopted into God's family.


How do you think people get adopted into God's family?

What is the Gospel you believe in?

 

[PeterJens]

What is Jesus building in our lives?
A shoring up job to stop final collapse or a rebuilding work, that takes the shell
and makes it all new?

And is this work done overnight or is an in-progress type of work.

Paul implies it is an in-progress type of work.

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Luke 13:24

Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else.
1 Thess 5:15

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Jude 1:24

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:10-14

With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith.
2 Thess 1:11

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Cor 15:58

Paul is saying we must follow our calling and work hard to fulfill it, being worthy servants
of the King.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
2 Cor 5:17

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Gal 6:15

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:23

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.
Eph 4:15

Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
1 Cor 11:32

In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Luke 14:33

Faith or belief is not enough, you have to follow it through with dedication,
following, giving, sacrifice, time, energy

 

[mailmandan]

Here Jesus says every branch in Me. Isn't that believers?

The branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not believers (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10,11).

The branch is in Him. I don't know how to understand that except that those in Christ are believers. What are you thoughts there?

Again, when Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

The 11 remaining disciples were clean. Was Judas Iscariot clean? No (John 13:10-11). Was he cut off? Yes. Was he saved? No.

I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. ​It seems here He's of course speaking to believers, but warning them that they can't do a thing without Him so they need to abide in the vine. So those who don't remain and abide in Christ, they dry up and are gathered to be burned. How else can we read this? It seems pretty clear that He's talking to Christians.

If Jesus had wanted to teach that there were true and false professing believers associated with Him, and if He wanted to use the analogy of a vine and branches, then the only way He could refer to people who do not have genuine life in themselves would be to speak of branches that bear no fruit (somewhat after the analogy of the seeds that fell on rocky ground and had "no root" in themselves" Mark 4:17). Here in John 15 the branches that do not bear fruit, though they are in some way connected to Jesus and give an outward appearance of being genuine branches, nonetheless give indication of their true state by the fact they bear no fruit. This is similarly indicated by the fact that the person "does not abide" in Christ (John 15:6) and is cast off as a branch and withers. If we try to press the analogy any further, by saying, for example, that all branches on a vine really are alive or they would not be there in the first place, then we are simply trying to press the imagery beyond what it is able to teach--and in that case there would be nothing in the analogy that could represent false believers in any case. The point of the imagery is simply that those who bear fruit thereby give evidence that they are abiding in Christ; those who do not, are not abiding in Him.

And thanks to all who want to respond ahead of time for discussing this calmly and respectfully. I truly want to see it as it should be interpreted.

Thank you.

 

[Ariel82]

Am I incorrect, or is the whole bible not centered on how we get eternal salvation? I mean that's why Jesus DID die, right?

No, but poking at Fran doesn't help the conversation.

Can you just post what God has shown you via the Bible and specific scriptures without the added personal commentary?

I have a stricter definition of gossip and I am trying to personally avoid it. However you are free to do as God leads you.

 

[blue_ladybug]

I have posted to her, and others, quite often actually, what God has shown me regarding the bible. There's nothing I can do to help those who choose to remain blind to the word of God..

No, but poking at Fran doesn't help the conversation.

Can you just post what God has shown you via the Bible and specific scriptures without the added personal commentary?

I have a stricter definition of gossip and I am trying to personally avoid it. However you are free to do as God leads you.

 

[Ariel82]

No need to remind anyone.

We're speaking about all the doctrine you list above:

1. How to gain salvataion.

2. How to keep salvation.

3. Is salvation eternal?


You did pack a lot into one thread!

Oh that's is simple.

1. Faith in Jesus (his redeeming work on the cross and resurrection) being sealed by the Holy spirit
2. Faith in Jesus, learning to walk with the Holy Spirit
3. Yes because God picks you up when you fall. If He begins a good work in you He is powerful enough to finish it.

 

[PennEd]

I've posted the history of OSAS.

Could you please do the same?
Could you instruct us all (instead of just saying how wrong I am) as to the HISTORY of eternal salvation?

Was it Always a belief of the Church?
When did it start?
Who started it?

Why wasn't it Always believed by the Church?
Any other comments would be appreciated.

thanks.

(you never do actually answer me)

Here is the whole history of osas (eternal security).
God wrapped Himself in human flesh. Was born of a virgin woman. Conceived by the Holy Spirit. Suffered. Was crucified. Died. Was buried. God the Father raised Him from the grave, according to the Scriptures.
I have confessed with my mouth, and believe in my heart. The Holy Spirit lives in me, and has SEALED me. Jesus has said to me He will NEVER leave me nor forsake me. I believe Him. I am eternally secure.

WON'T YOU JOIN ME?