Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Oh I finally got it. "Rather than"..

Sorry Peterjens, your posts can be as confusing as G777 some days.

 

[FranC]

I don't like this wording of "following Satan" because it may give the false impression that Satan equal to God. People don't have to follow Satan to disobey God.,they can make their own kingdoms and many other sins.

Following flesh is not the same, because Satan isn't as powerful as God and demonic influence is different from fleshly influence.

However that could be a totally different conversation.

If you're speaking to me, I'll be happy to answer.

But I'm not sure you are...

 

[Ariel82]

If you're speaking to me, I'll be happy to answer.

But I'm not sure you are...

I was in that post.

 

[Ariel82]

Jimbo, there is a difference between having answers and having the RIGHT answer for someone.

GOD gave me the answers I need to live my life.

However He gave you different gifts and a different ministry, so probably also different answers. how you understand scriptures may be based upon what God wants you to learn and do.

Like a doctor's doesn't give everyone the same medicine. God gives us what we need to be cured of the lies and spiritual strongholds in our lives. He equips us all differently.

I believe in loving even our enemies, so I would not disown you even if we had different doctrines.

I would pray for you and hope you pray for me and seek God's truth and not our own.

Anyway. Hope you have a blessed night.

PS. Didn't I just stick up for you and say I did NOT think you a works salvationist?

 

[Ariel82]

Hi Ariel
What is a spiritual stronghold?

2 Corinthians 10:4 ►

New International Version
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

New Living Translation
We use God's mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments.

English Standard Version
For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

Berean Study Bible
The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of the world. Instead, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Berean Literal Bible
For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but divinely powerful toward the demolition of strongholds,

New American Standard Bible
for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.

King James Bible
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

 

[FranC]

John 14:6 teaches us:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

If a good work could get me to heaven, Jesus need not have sacrificed himself for me.
However we often miss the commandment set out in James 1:27 which says:

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.


So looks like we are told how to be saved AND how to act as Christians on earth.

You're right and we are certainly taught both.

I fail to see why we're even discussing works IF we all agree that they're necessary for sanctification.

The problem might be that some here may believe that works actually bring a person to salvation. Personally, I know of no denomination that teaches this.

ONLY God can save.
To CONTINUE to be saved, we must CONTINUE in God's way. Follow Jesus and what He taught.

If we abandon Jesus and His way, does that not put us right back where we started?

 

[Ariel82]

I think that some believe that works are needed to maintain salvation (root) versus the fruit of already being saved with Christ being the Root,

 

[saltwn]

I know, FranC of communities who abandon works also. I guess the key is to strive to do both as both are set out clearly.
Praying for clarity and understanding is key also I think. I know personally a lot of religion seemed rather foggy to me till I honestly just sat down with God and said look I don't get this; please help me.
Boom! Drop the mike! God was there with a plan and it's like night and day. He is so awesome

 

[FranC]

I know, FranC of communities who abandon works also. I guess the key is to strive to do both as both are set out clearly.
Praying for clarity and understanding is key also I think. I know personally a lot of religion seemed rather foggy to me till I honestly just sat down with God and said look I don't get this; please help me.
Boom! Drop the mike! God was there with a plan and it's like night and day. He is so awesome

When I was born again, I had never read the bible.
And still didn't for years.

I find that I was OK with that because it truly is a personal relationship and I felt like I'd know our Lord all my life.
However, I realized that I wanted to share my faith with Others, so to do this, I had to know something about my faith.

So I read the bible (n.t.) with an open mind and gleened a lot from it. Then I went to a Nazarene Church and that helped me a lot because I took a year-long discipleship class that really taught me how important it is to share.

Some theology, some of this and some of that. I know people I could talk to... And so your mind is formed AFTER your heart.

OTOH, some people come to God AFTER hearing the word or reading the bible.
God will get accomplished the salvation of everyone who wishes to be saved.

So, yeah, let's get rid of as much fog as possible, although we will never truly understand everything and God must have a good laugh at us every now and then.!

 

[Ariel82]

There is a saying "if you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans"

God's plans are so much better than anything we could come up with.

 

[PeterJens]

Hidden in plain sight.

Truth can be just one layer away, one thought reordered, one perspective added,
and everything changes. It is why the least obvious can become the most powerful.

 

[blessedjohn80]

"Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[a] save Yourself and us.”

But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”

Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Luke 23:39-43

Looking back at this event, we see a proof that at least one person got saved without works and only faith in Jesus.

Now this guy is in heaven.
God's grace is good!
Just as good as Jesus!

Scoreboard:

Not by works = 1
By works = 0

 

[PeterJens]

The criminal on the cross showed so much
1 Christ was innocent
2 He died for others and forgave them
3 the criminal was guilty and had his just reward
4 Christ was going to heaven
5 He rebuked the other criminal for his abuse, a sign of faith a good work
6 He asked the Lord to save him
7 Christ had overcome death and fear
8 He saw Christs love for his mother and disciples

This man saw all the realities of Christ, had a close up view for 6 hours.
What a sight, what a man.

 

[Grace777x70]

Do you understand THE FLESH to be the same thing as the SIN NATURE?

IOW, our heart if pure. God said He would give us a new heart. Jeremiah 31. Ezekiel 36:26

God resides in our heart and we want to do His will.
But we still have a sin nature. It's put under submission, but it is still present.
If it were not, we'd never sin.

I suppose that you call this the flesh.

The sin nature term is a man-made one. It is not a biblical term. Unfortunately it came about from the NIV which translated the Greek word "sarx" which is flesh - they changed it to say "sinful nature" because of their religious church taught beliefs. They have since fixed this error in their subsequent newer translations.

As I have said - the flesh is here with us but it is NOT our identity. The flesh is NOT us. The only "nature" talked about in the New Covenant is us having the divine nature of God that Peter talks about.

The old man which was our sinful nature has been crucified on the cross with Christ - it has died. There is still the power of sin in our members Paul says in Romans 7:17-23 and there is still the flesh which is our ways of thinking and doing things to find life which is in our brains/minds - how we live on this earth outside of God's life. This is one of the reasons why we are transformed by the renewing of our minds.

Here is a short 6 minute video that talks about "the flesh".


[video=youtube;wYQxHB-U6NU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYQxHB-U6NU[/video]

Here is a 4 minute one that talks about "Who is the real me?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4sS6QmQ-Ps

 

[Seohce]

From Seoche " The purpose and intentions of some here is quite questionnable. If Christ is the mediator between God and man, can't He between men as the Word of God? Humility is lost in this thread which causes division and strife."

The discussion often gets heated on both sides of the debate, but God doesn't tell us to judge the truthfulness of the message by the holiness of the messenger, though many do use that at a judge.

With everyone God is still working on our hearts and minds to conform to His will.

For a few days, this thread was going fine. People shared their personal testimonies and it truly felt like the Holy Spirit was moving in the hearts and minds of many present.

Then a wave of delusion came and certain members felt attacked and felt the need to defend themselves. So instead of praying and seeking God's wisdom they lashed out at their perceived enemies, forgetting that we do not war against flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness.

After that point, the whole mood of the thread de-evolved and Satan got his momentary victory.

So you offer Bible verses and judge folks external actions and find them lacking?

Do you also offer prayers and question your own motives, before judging theirs?

I don't know everyone's motives in this thread, but I know that Dcon is to have people hear that the gospel is about faith in the finished work of Christ alone and NOT anything people think they can or must do to earn their salvation.

Do you agree or disagree with that belief?

Those who disagree will find and make strife in this thread.for there is no peace found in a false gospel.

Those who agree will find fellowship and acceptance into the Body of Christ.

This doctrine is fundamental to the Christian faith. If you don't know the foundation of your faith, then out of love many here will seek to warn of false gospels and teach you why you should have faith in Christ alone for salvation.

Just a repost.

Mat 21:43-44 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will PRODUCE ITS FRUITS. He who falls on this stone will be cut to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Luke 17:7-10 “Suppose one of you had a SERVANT plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘COME ALONG NOW SIT DOWN & EAT’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, GET YOURSELF READY and wait on me while I eat and drink; AFTER that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘WE ARE UNWORTHY SERVANTS; we have only done our duty.’”
A TRUE CHRISTIAN ALTHOUGH CONSIDERED AS A CHILD OF GOD IS STILL A SERVANT OF GOD AND MUST NOT EVEN THINK OTHERWISE BECAUSE GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED(gal 6:7) SOME CHRISTIANS HOWEVER, BECAUSE OF THEIR WRONG NOTION OF SALVATION, BECAME SO CONFIDENT THAT THEY BELIEVED THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS NO LONGER NECESSARY AND ARE JUST “DEAD WORKS”. MAYBE THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE ALREADY “WORTHY” TO SIT ON GOD’S TABLE BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH(VOID OF WORKS), EVEN WITHOUT GOD’S APPROVAL.

WE ARE THE FELLOW WORKERS OF GOD(1cor 3:9), THE BODY OF CHRIST(eph 5:23) WHO DO HIS WORKS HERE ON EARTH(john 14:12, 1cor ch.12). ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST OR THE VINE BUT CONDEMNS GOOD WORKS & EVEN TEACHES AS A DOCTRINE THAT FAITH PLUS (GOOD) WORKS IS A LIE FROM HELL, IS HIMSELF CONDEMNED. HE IS ARROGANT & BOASTFUL YET UNDERSTANDS NOTHING. Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are DETESTABLE, DISOBEDIENT and UNFIT for doing anything good.

1 Timothy 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Jude 1:16,19 These men are GRUMBLERS and FAULTFINDERS; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instinct and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

***GOD PUTS A BELIEVER INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST TO DO HIS WORKS OF SALVATION,
(1 Timothy 4:16) Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, YOU WILL SAVE BOTH YOURSELF AND YOUR HEARERS.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it...

Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for WORKS OF SERVICE so that the BODY OF CHRIST may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

SINCE IT IS THAT SAME BODY WHOM HE IS GOING TO SAVE-- (Ephesians 5:23)” For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which HE IS THE SAVIOR.”
--THE OBEDIENT & FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD. (Matthew 25:21) “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
ONCE HE’S INSIDE THE BODY(THE VINE) HE IS EXPECTED TO DO GOOD WORKS(PRODUCE FRUIT)
OTHERWISE HE WILL BE CUT OFF.
Romans 11:18,20-23 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Granted. But they were broken off because of UNBELIEF, and you stand by FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU either. CONSIDER therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(mat 18:8-9))If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

1 Corinthians 5:6-13 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast... I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE with ANYONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the CHURCH(body of Christ)? ARE YOU NOT TO JUDGE THOSE INSIDE? God will judge those outside. “EXPEL THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOU.”

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. ALWAYS GIVE YOURSELVES FULLY TO THE WORK OF THE LORD, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Peter 2:16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as SERVANTS OF GOD.

 

[PeterJens]

There is a flaw in the duality model of life.
Anything that is an issue or difficult is not longer you, but the evil other, the body.

This is very appealing, but there is no way we can divide ourselves in such a fashion.
We are living beings, mamals with a real physical biological presence with systems
relating to our humanity, fear, joy, love, hunger, anger, desire, sadness, pain.
We are conscious and know we are looking out through our eyes. We have control
over what we emphasis but not the whole system.

Jesus comes with a total solution, not a partial defeated, compromised answer, as
He is the creator. It is sowing to the Spirit, walking in Jesus and love, obedience
to His commands, exercising faith. Now if this is the gospel, anything else that
compromises it is not.

So one disfunctional way of living is denial of emotions and repression. It shows itself
in people who never display one particular aspect of life, yet it is present. The effect
of doing this is people become hyper sensitive to that emotion, and when triggered explodes
out of control. They feel it is a beast waiting to break out, when in reality it is just a feeling
but repressed and ignored so grows bigger only to be heard. A dualist view of spiritual life
appeals to people like this because they disown their own feelings, but are taken over by
them at intervals.

One sign you do this, is when levels of the emotion rise disproportionately to the stimulus,
and go on when they should just fade away. Often the quietest people are raging inside
but never let it out. This is not how God wants us to live, or be victims of.

It is also why many dare not go near their hearts because they think these emotions will
overwhelm them, when actually like a wave they will come, and then go. Emotions are like
pointers to what is going on inside, which need to be listened to and taken into account,
and then balanced with all the other issues of life. As Jesus said

Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Matt 6:33-34

Deal with what is before you. Tomorrow is another day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG

The Mosaic Covenant was conditional.
Also the Edenic Covenant was conditional.

This is interesting, I've Always thought.

Both times, we failed.

The Edenic was the Agreement between God and Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit.
Adam was the lord of the land God had given him. Everything was his, he had dominion.

All he had to do was obey God and not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The blessing...... eternal life.
The curse ......... separation from God (Death)

He failed. As the Israelites failed at keeping the commandments even though they were sure they could.

Hi Fran,

Yes, Thanks for bringing this up.

The Edenic covenant was conditional and caused mankind to fall. And thus require the need to be saved.

The mosaic covenant was given, and again man failed, and did what it was supposed to do, Cause them to seek a savior.

he redemptive symbol of Passover is that sign, While it could be said they had to slaughter the animal and spread the blood. Christ offered himself as the sacrifice, and the HS spreads the blood.

what was required was faith. In Egypt, One had to trust that God would send that angel of death, And that God would spare them if they spread the blood.

They also had to trust that after the first born of the Egyptians was killed, they would not retaliate and kill all Israel. In other words, It was more than just mere mental agreement,

Likewise, We have to trust God will send sinners to hell, And that God did sacrifice Christ for our sins, so his blood can be applied to our door posts. And that God will protect us if the world retaliates because it hates God.

ie, More than just mental agreement (james 2) for even demons believe...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey PJ

This is a difficult concept to nail down.

Regarding the heart being pure,I mean. It's pure from day 1, but we keep on sinning. We are pure in the eyes of God.

Do you like this analogy?


Christianity is the only religion in the world where a person could go to hell for stealing a pen,
but end up in heaven after commiting murder.

If you can explain why, you don't have to worry about the heart being pure or not.

The person who stole the pen and is not a Christian cannot go to heaven.
The person who commited murder but repents and comes to a saving knowledge of God, will be saved.

Amen,

We have proof of this in the bible.

David committed murder and adultery, And Jesus will sit on his throne.

Yet we have many who would be considered morally upright by our standards, Who will never see heaven because they have not been redeemed by the blood.

That is why it is dangerous to poke at certain sins and say these people can,t be saved, or boast in our righteousness, and say I have not murdered or been addicted to porn, or whatever..

 

[Grace777x70]

The other aspect of the Mosaic Covenant is that it is a type or shadow of which Christ Himself is the real substance.

No one looked at the person when they brought the lamb to atone for their sins. They looked to the lamb for any blemish or spots. Jesus is our Lamb of God and He is spotless and without blemish.

God looks at us in Jesus because we are one spirit with Him by means of the Holy Spirit for all eternity. 1 Cor. 6:17. Jesus Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever! John 14:16 Thank you Lord. We believe!.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're right and we are certainly taught both.

I fail to see why we're even discussing works IF we all agree that they're necessary for sanctification.

The problem might be that some here may believe that works actually bring a person to salvation. Personally, I know of no denomination that teaches this.

ONLY God can save.
To CONTINUE to be saved, we must CONTINUE in God's way. Follow Jesus and what He taught.

If we abandon Jesus and His way, does that not put us right back where we started?

That is the problem, and I think why DC opened this thread, because I agree, nno one will deny sanctification is a work in progress done by works which produce fruit, sadly, many teach salvation is one of those fruits.

Many denominations teach works are required, Even if they deny it,

Many people in here teach it, Even though they deny it.

They teach salvation is a reward, which is gained or kept by how well we do. How righteous we are, How powerful we are to not "fall away" or to remain in the faith by human means, not kept in faith By God means (which would mean you could never lose faith because God can not fail)

Satan is the master deceiver, Although the law said plainly, only one sin will condemn you, and that a sacrifice had to be given for atonement, And all the OT prophets showed how God was going to restore mankind by the suffering servant, and bring gentiles into his family. The pharisees could not see it, I am sure they would say they did not work either.. They were saved by birthright (because they were jews)