Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Hebrews seems to suggest with a real break with God, there is no way back.
I think this is more of warning as to what happens to peoples hearts rather than a statement
if you come to the Lord and repent He will not open up the door.

What am I thinking about here?

One idea is if you back slide, get discouraged, drift away, there is a way back.
Many do this, and find they grow cold and wonder quite what happened.

Others decide to actively abandon the faith and go back to a life of sin and debauchery.
Hebrews is saying, if you do this, conviction and repentance will not occur, just a regret
of walking away, and a fear of judgement. It will be a sad place. God is not going to
reject people, they will just be lost. Hebrews describes it like this

"only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
Heb 10:27

Jesus talks of something similar in counting the cost and not completing, it would be better not
to have started in the first place.

 

[Ariel82]

So you REALLY DID MEAN to say that "if you repent, God will NOT open the door".....as in God will reject you?

Cuz you never addressed that point.

Could be done by simply say "oops, I made a mistake typing that extra word NOT" or is admitting you might have done something wrong too hard?

And you wonder why people misunderstand your position?

 

[PeterJens]

G777 makes a distinction between sins in the heart and sins rooted in the mind.

So you are saying there is a difference between sins of the heart and sins of the mind.
I would like to know more.

I do not think there is a scripture that says the heart is born again pure but the mind
is still corrupt and full of evil. Where do our emotions and desires sit? In the mind or
the heart?

The story used to be you get a new spirit from the Lord at new birth, now it is a new
heart. It makes me rather cynical of the whole construct especially when it is used
as the basis of saying people are evil, while these preachers know what they are talking
about.

I am open to expansion on these ideas, except there probably are none. But I am waiting.
And if the new believers hearts are pure already, why is James saying we need to purify.

Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10

Now James is addressing believers and calling them to repent.
Now if they already had a pure heart they would not need to purify their hearts.
So I think this theology is mistaken from scripture.

 

[PeterJens]

So you REALLY DID MEAN to say that "if you repent, God will NOT open the door".....as in God will reject you?

Cuz you never addressed that point.

Could be done by simply say "oops, I made a mistake typing that extra word NOT" or is admitting you might have done something wrong too hard?

And you wonder why people misunderstand your position?

Ariel, I was thinking, Hebrews is saying not God will not accept you back, is that you will never
really return. The concept might be more similar of the rebellion of angels. They saw God and
rejected Him, so their is no way back for them. I think few people I have met are in this category
if any. Most appear to have faced some trauma that through them off, and they got lost in
perspectives. It never occurred to me before like this, as a warning, rather than the Lord does not
keep an open door for discouraged sheep.

 

[PeterJens]

Could be done by simply say "oops, I made a mistake typing that extra word NOT" or is admitting you might have done something wrong too hard?

I did not make a typo. I was just thinking about the idea in comparison.
This also links to another concept, of innocense of rebellion.
Paul was deemed innocent of His behaviour against the Lord, because he sincerely believed
he was doing a righteous thing, and following scripture. This is probably in contrast to other
pharisees who had really sold out, and had no sense of aspirations to love and God, they
preferred the show whether it worked or not.
We are deemed innocent of Christs death because the sin we commited we did not know it
was against the Lord. By implication this changes the view the Lord has of us once we know
Him and still stay in sin and rebellion. I am sure many will dislike such a suggestion, because
it implies the ability to walk in the Spirit and in the will of God.

 

[Grace777x70]

G777 makes a distinction between sins in the heart and sins rooted in the mind.

It's the renewing of the mind that needs to be done. Sins originate from the flesh which our minds agree with. The power of sin which is still in the flesh "deceives" us which is why we are to walk by the spirit within us.

We will always have the flesh with the law of sin in it to deal with. Romans 7:17-23

Believers in Christ have a new heart cleaned by faith in Christ.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

This new heart in Christ is where Jesus is one spirit with us. 1 Cor. 6:17

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Blow me down. g7 is saying as believers we are born again with a pure heart,
without lusts of the flesh.

So the pornography problem with believers is actually because they are not believers.

That mucks up ones view of faith and transformation.

I notice how the argument goes from we are terrible sinners who can never attain to
purity of heart to we have pure hearts from day 1.

When you anchor belief in the word and ones experience, you come close to what is truth.
It stops this massive flipping of arguments depending on the audience. It is why I call this
type of approach a mirage.

why do you not stop assuming you know what Grace meant, instead of assuming.

Thats why gets you into so much trouble..

Nothing you said here even comes close to what I have heard Grace say or what he believes..

This is why I don't interact with these types any more because the sky is blue....

It's a waste of time when we say the same things over and over again - only to have it twisted to say that we are saying the sky is green...

Something is wrong in Denmark as the saying goes...

 

[PeterJens]

God gave us new hearts - this is our true identity.

I see a linguistic problem here in the double meaning of the word heart.
Heart is how we at the core of us deal with life and everything that goes on.
Our hearts are who we are, and how are hearts are dictates how we interact with the
world.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:26

So the Lord says you will have a new heart, not of stone but of flesh.

Now the lusts of flesh stay with us our whole lives because they are part of our
humanity and part of our hearts. How they express themselves can be as part
of Gods Spirit in us or as part of slavery to sin.

 

[PeterJens]

But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them.
Matt 15:18

If the heart is pure, then we are pure and never can be defiled.
Both of these things cannot be true, as many believers are defiled in word and deed.

 

[Ariel82]

"So you are saying there is a difference between sins of the heart and sins of the mind.
I would like to know more.
"

Nope, I am saying that G777 makes the distinction and his use of words, reflect his beliefs...

Would you like me to translate g777 speak to PeterJens speak?

 

[Ariel82]

It's the renewing of the mind that needs to be done. Sins originate from the flesh which our minds agree with. The power of sin which is still in the flesh "deceives" us which is why we are to walk by the spirit within us.

We will always have the flesh with the law of sin in it to deal with. Romans 7:17-23

Believers in Christ have a new heart cleaned by faith in Christ.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

This new heart in Christ is where Jesus is one spirit with us. 1 Cor. 6:17

1. Always is a long time and not true because in one day we will get new bodies.

What do you mean "sin orignate from the flesh"?

Jesus had human flesh/body but no sin.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel, I was thinking, Hebrews is saying not God will not accept you back, is that you will never
really return. The concept might be more similar of the rebellion of angels. They saw God and
rejected Him, so their is no way back for them. I think few people I have met are in this category
if any. Most appear to have faced some trauma that through them off, and they got lost in
perspectives. It never occurred to me before like this, as a warning, rather than the Lord does not
keep an open door for discouraged sheep.

Wow..you still don't see your mistake or you refuse to admit you can be wrong?

 

[PeterJens]

God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9

Put simply, I have always agreed God purifies our hearts, Amen.
But this is not automatic new heart, but a cleansing. And we can defile ourselves by
sowing to the lusts of the flesh, which will defile us.

It is repentance of sin, confession and going to the cross that bring purification through
the blood.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If sin did not defile us after coming to faith, we would not need to be purified
again. But it is this continual washing in the word, repenting, confessing and walking
in love that transforms us.

The problem I always have is this denial that this is the walk, cleansing, defilement,
repentance, confession, cleansing.

The most common testimony is not a miraculous everything sorted but a cycle of
revelation, stumbling, getting right, sorting things out, and walking on. I can but
repeat this basic steps of faith, because they seem to be continually challenged
as if there is something new to say, which it always appears is just a variation on
a heresy or false teaching tried before.

And I rejoice that interaction is limited, saves a lot of wasted energy on pointless
miss-quoting and understanding basic scripture.

 

[Ariel82]

I did not make a typo. I was just thinking about the idea in comparison.
This also links to another concept, of innocense of rebellion.
Paul was deemed innocent of His behaviour against the Lord, because he sincerely believed
he was doing a righteous thing, and following scripture. This is probably in contrast to other
pharisees who had really sold out, and had no sense of aspirations to love and God, they
preferred the show whether it worked or not.
We are deemed innocent of Christs death because the sin we commited we did not know it
was against the Lord. By implication this changes the view the Lord has of us once we know
Him and still stay in sin and rebellion. I am sure many will dislike such a suggestion, because
it implies the ability to walk in the Spirit and in the will of God.

So you mean to say if people repent God will NOT open the door and let them back in?

That your god will reject a repentant heart?

 

[Grace777x70]

1. Always is a long time and not true because in one day we will get new bodies.

What do you mean "sin orignate from the flesh"?

Jesus had human flesh/body but no sin.

I agree ...which is why I said in my original post that one day we will get new bodies - incorruptible without the law of sin in them. Which by the way I believe why there is no sinning in heaven. There is no flesh to deal with to deceive us and our minds will reflect the life of Christ un-hindered.

Read Romans 7:17-23 and you will see the sin in the flesh talked about.

 

[Ariel82]

Facepalm....some days I ask God,why do I even bother?

 

[Grace777x70]

What do you mean "sin orignate from the flesh"?

QUOTE]


I believe that "sin" - the noun - not having dominion over us ( Rom. 6:14 ) is referring to the sin that is in the flesh not having dominion because we are in the spirit in Christ and not in the flesh.

I look at "sinning" ( the action ) as a response to the deceitfulness of sin - the noun ( that which is still in our flesh ) if we yield to the lie that the sin in our flesh is saying to us. Kind of like cause and effect - that is if we believe the lie of sin that speaks to us.

I too believe that the more we get a revelation that we are not in the flesh but really in the spirit because the real us is in Christ - the new creation - then "the influence" of sin loses it's power because of walking by the Spirit which is all based on the grace of Christ alone.

It's the influence of sin in our flesh that deceives us into doing the action of sinning. That is what I see in "sin shall not have dominion over us".

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The flesh ( which are the ways and old habits of getting life and meaning from the world instead of through faith in Christ ) and the law/principle of sin ( Romans 7:23 ) work together in cohoots.

They know what works on us individually. For example: If in the past we are trying in our own fleshly ways to get love by having sex with others. Then the power of sin will inflame that desire in us to be with other people.

If we have a problem with pride - then the power of sin will use that to influence us to think that we are the beginning and end of all things... If we think lowly of ourselves then the power of sin will use that to say we are worthless.

Each of us have our own unique fleshly ways of trying to find life from the world's belief system instead of through Christ's life that is in us. This brings death but walking by the spirit brings life and peace through the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work alone.

 

[PeterJens]

Wow..you still don't see your mistake or you refuse to admit you can be wrong?

I can be wrong. I have used double negatives sometimes. But if I have an idea, express it,
that is the idea. Maybe it is wrong, but first I want to establish the point I am trying to make.
When I see something new, at least for me, it can take time to express it properly.

Now I was wrong to call someone an apostate for saying 60% of my gospel was wrong.
I felt really bad about this. It took me some time to work out why. Because it was a
statement without meaning, just a general rejection, and you cannot be an apostate on
that basis, even if logically if faith was made up of 4 steps, 2+ would be excluded, it
is not a definitive statement of rejection. So Ariel, I admit what I can grasp, and what
the Lord convicts me about, which I take to heart. Maybe I am crazy like this, but it
is my walk with Him.

Thankfully we all vary, else it would be very boring, lol

I do realise you think I am appalling. I feel it from here, ouch.
I wonder why you think fellowship is as open as you claim?

It is obvious to me some believe they are saved, no issues between them and the Lord,
it is all hunky dory, no matter what they say or do.

This has taught me how certain doctrines go miles too far, because the people interpreting
it are using their minds not the Holy Spirit and their hearts in Christ.
I used not to understand what Jesus meant about fulfilling the law, now it makes sense.
And it makes sense because I see things emotionally as well as factually. It is impossible
without a pure heart and being emotionally open, to full appreciate what the Lord means.
This sounds totally pompous, yet to me, it feels like reality.

Every new layer changes the whole scene, amen, thankyou Jesus.

C S Lewis captured part of this idea in Nania. A transformed heart sees things
differently, and people with similar insights agree because they see it together.

Why others do not comprehend or know what is being said or why, is just the
way it is. I am prepared to accept this and know who I have fellowship with.

God bless you.

 

[Grace777x70]

All born-again Christians are pure in heart. It's the same reason why all water is wet. It's the very nature of it.

Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart which is pure because it is in Christ!

I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him.

In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically - looking into this New Covenant and said - "Create in me a clean heart O God".

Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean". This is why Jesus said that out of the heart of man proceeds all these evil things - He said this before the Cross and resurrection speaking of the heart of unregenerate man-kind.

This is the heart of man "before" we became new creations in Christ and we now have new hearts cleansed and where the Holy Spirit dwells in us as one spirit with Christ Himself.

We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.

It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.

We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.

I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.

We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13

The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23

Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.

The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )


Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us t he Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.

Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.

1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.

 

[PeterJens]

So you mean to say if people repent God will NOT open the door and let them back in?

That your god will reject a repentant heart?

I am saying God is not doing this, I am saying Hebrews is suggesting they never get to
repentance, because the Lord will not work with them in this way.

If you feel repentance and desire to resolve things with God, you have not reached this
state.