Not By Works

[ForthAngel]

No where does it say God had control of their rejection also unto the point God decided now ill save.

You are still misunderstanding my side. Who said anything about God controlling their rejection? We don't need any help to be evil. We need his help to be good in fact. God has always saved through faith. The old testament saints looked forward to the cross as we look back.

Romans 3
4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

 

[preacher4truth]

Twisting scripture again i see.

Jesus is saying they dont believe because they constantly reject Gods calling

Nothing iin the text says that. It states why they don't believe plainly. It is because they are not His sheep. Bro you're the one twisting that Scripture.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Nothing iin the text says that. It states why they don't believe plainly. It is because they are not His sheep. Bro you're the one twisting that Scripture.

No basically you twos belief makes faith pointless

 

[ForthAngel]

You are still misunderstanding my side. Who said anything about God controlling their rejection? We don't need any help to be evil. We need his help to be good in fact. God has always saved through faith. The old testament saints looked forward to the cross as we look back.

Romans 3
4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Romans 4**

 

[Roughsoul1991]

It make evangelism pointless.

So believe what you want but i will speak to everyone as if they should have hope. And not teach im sorry some are unconditionally elected so some of you are dead men walking already.

Obviously something is being misunderstood.

I think its man trying to understand God and his ways to allow free will and also his all knowing to know who will have faith and be the elect.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Its man trying to explain God that is teaching of evil

 

[preacher4truth]

If God pre elected then non should be accountable to sin because God has already chosen the saved so the damned can live it up i suppose.

The damned do live it up in one way or another. And all are held responsible. Did not God use a certain nation to punish Israel then didn't He punish that nation for doing it? Jeremiah 25:8-15

Or better yet how do you know if your elected?

All saved are elect. Do you claim Romans 8:28ff? It's only written for the elect, read the context.

If God predestined everything then God created sin. Sin and evil is the proof of free will.

Ah the problem of evil...Job received good and evil at God's hand and stated so. The verdict pronounced upon him for saying that was that Job did not win with his lips in what he said. Job 2:10.

Be careful with your accusations upon Holy God bro.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

By your belief i look at my 2 children and say its poinless to try and raise them up in God if one or both is not chosen or if one or both is chosen then they will by force come to know God and I can rest easy and not try to teach them about God.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The damned do live it up in one way or another. And all are held responsible. Did not God use a certain nation to punish Israel then didn't He punish that nation for doing it? Jeremiah 25:8-15



All saved are elect. Do you claim Romans 8:28ff? It's only written for the elect, read the context.



Ah the problem of evil...Job received good and evil at God's hand and stated so. The verdict pronounced upon him for saying that was that Job did not win with his lips in what he said. Job 2:10.

Be careful with your accusations upon Holy God bro.

Exactly all saved is elected. All who come to God become the elected

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The damned do live it up in one way or another. And all are held responsible. Did not God use a certain nation to punish Israel then didn't He punish that nation for doing it? Jeremiah 25:8-15



All saved are elect. Do you claim Romans 8:28ff? It's only written for the elect, read the context.



Ah the problem of evil...Job received good and evil at God's hand and stated so. The verdict pronounced upon him for saying that was that Job did not win with his lips in what he said. Job 2:10.

Be careful with your accusations upon Holy God bro.

No one would be held responsible if one has a pass to heaven and one to hell. Then each persons sins wont matter because thier destinations are set.

 

[preacher4truth]

It make evangelism pointless.

So believe what you want but i will speak to everyone as if they should have hope..

No, evangelism is not pointless:

[FONT=&quot]Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound![/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2 Timothy 2:8-10

[/FONT]Knowing the elect are out there is why we evangelize.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Im not the sharpest tool in the shed but this theology abused by humans trying to explain God is sad and depressing. I hope and pray God enlightens the hearts of those who believe unconditional election.

 

[ForthAngel]

It make evangelism pointless.

Evangelism isn't pointless. The Gospel is the means by which God chose to save his elect. This really isn't that complicated.

So believe what you want but i will speak to everyone as if they should have hope. And not teach im sorry some are unconditionally elected so some of you are dead men walking already.

That is how you should speak to people. No one has said otherwise. We are all dead men walking and without hope apart from Christ.

Obviously something is being misunderstood.

Obviously...

I think its man trying to understand God and his ways to allow free will and also his all knowing to know who will have faith and be the elect.

Prove freewill using scripture.

Ephesians 2English Standard Version (ESV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us​ alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I don't know how it can be any more clear. Think I'm gonna take a break. Thanks for the conversation Roughsoul.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

No, evangelism is not pointless:

[FONT=&quot]Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound![/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2 Timothy 2:8-10

[/FONT]Knowing the elect are out there is why we evangelize.

You become elected once you believe not God already elected. Just another way to say you become adopted. God loves all his creation and wants all to come to repentance.

 

[preacher4truth]

No one would be held responsible if one has a pass to heaven and one to hell. Then each persons sins wont matter because thier destinations are set.

You're not even looking at the texts and are only offering knee jerk cliche reponses. You think you're the only one who couldn't completely grasp these truths? You're making the Socinian error that it all has to make logical sense to finite minds or it's not true. He is God, not us.

You're wasting my time here, you're not really wanting to consider the Word given you. No need for me to continue because frankly you're disrespecting the Word and others answering you.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Evangelism isn't pointless. The Gospel is the means by which God chose to save his elect. This really isn't that complicated.



That is how you should speak to people. No one has said otherwise. We are all dead men walking and without hope apart from Christ.



Obviously...



Prove freewill using scripture.

Ephesians 2English Standard Version (ESV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made usalive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I don't know how it can be any more clear. Think I'm gonna take a break. Thanks for the conversation Roughsoul.

Bro anything giving someone a choice in scripture is free will. Telling people to believe, have faith, restraining from sin.

Im not at a laptop or else i would post tons of scripture that you would only refuse. Lol

 

[Roughsoul1991]

You're not even looking at the texts and are only offering knee jerk cliche reponses. You think you're the only one who couldn't completely grasp these truths? You're making the Socinian error that it all has to make logical sense to finite minds or it's not true. He is God, not us.

You're wasting my time here, you're not really wanting to consider the Word given you. No need for me to continue because frankly you're disrespecting the Word and others answering you.

It took you that long to realize i dont agree with you?

What you post is your interpretation. I have read the same scriptures they are not new. I do not deny them but only interpret them differently than you.

Many do not agree with unconditional election. And I am one. Not here to debate because that is just wrong.

 

[PeterJens]

Well maybe we are all crazy

When you grasp we are on a ball in space going round a sun, and this atmosphere is only
20 miles thick and this is the only habitable place we know in a vast universe, we are allowed
to be crazy, because we see such a small part of the reality around us.

 

[PeterJens]

Perspectives

God is a farmer who is reaping a harvest in a field of people. He has sown seed and he
will gather in the fruitful crop.

We think of hell as punishment. But in a sense Hell is just the elimination of that which does
not work. When the veil is removed and we see God face to face, only the righteous will
stand, the rest will be destroyed. To behold the King without a pure heart is torture.
The internal struggles destroy the very being of the individual, nothing works because their
state of being denies the very needs and truth they are.

As beings we are very fragile, we need to reflect the King to whom we belong.

This is why I hold to a hell of annihilation rather than torture, because as humans we are
not in a state of knowledge of the Lord, but created to be like Him. We cannot exist without
this reflection. Why are we trascended in worship, why do our hearts soar, why do we know
His presence and the touch of His love?

Life is a gift, and sinners have one life to experience its bounty. Out of this the elect rise.
The Lord knows from the beginning of time the harvest he would bring in, and the limitations
of all its fragility and beauty. The harvest to eternity is worth the cost of the lost.
God opens the door for all, yet only the elect cross it. Which perspective you choose it
is all part of the same thing.

This makes me realise the dispute is not even a dispute, because often both are right, but
each persons emotional perspective leads them to one or other as their option.

In the fog of seeing two worlds, the insanity of sin, and the glory of God, people choose
a path. What you see ahead is just the next step, because without being changed the
rest does not make sense and one cannot grasp it. Such is the truth of the way.

He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1 Peter 1:20

“This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
Luke 9:35

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
John 15:16

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Luke 18:15-17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

15 Some people were even bringing infants to Him so He might touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 Jesus, however, invited them: “Let the little children come to Me, and don’t stop them, because the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 I assure you: Whoever does not welcome the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

The unconditional election goes right out the door dealing with children as a great example to prove this false.

Because the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Such as these is directed to Children.

Children- part of speech- noun
Case-accusative
gender- neuter
number- plural

Such- part of speech- Demonstrative Pronoun are the same pronouns used for demonstrative adjectives - this, that, these and those. The difference is in the sentence structure.

• The demonstrative pronoun takes the place of the noun phrase.
• The demonstrative adjective is always followed by a noun. Kingdom being the noun that follows.

Case-Genitive is the grammatical case that marks a noun as modifying another noun. It often marks a noun as being the possessor of another noun. Children being the possessor noun.
Gender-Neuter
Number- Plural

Both Children and such are Neuter and plural meaning they represent each other.

Children belong to Heaven as for the reason why we must become fully dependent on God as Children are to their parents. Children are born fallen but we see why they are innocent in the eyes of God in verse

Romans 5
13To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
Romans 7:7
.....Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law
Romans 8-9
For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Children can not comprehend the law and therefore sin is not held to account and they are alive apart from the law. Proving everyone is chosen to be saved from birth.

Nowhere in scripture does it say God adds a name to the book of life but only can take away a name.


Revelation 3:5New International Version (NIV)

5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Only proving at birth everyone's name is in the book of life but as children mature and comprehension of God and Gods law is comprehended then they are held to sin. Held responsible for choosing Christ as savior or remain in rebellion.


Romans 5
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.


Hebrews 2:9New International Version (NIV)

9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.


1 John 4:14-15New International Version (NIV)

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

Life for all people, everyone, Savior of the World!


Ephesians 1:3-10New International Version (NIV)

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[c] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

God Chose us ( mankind) to have the choice to be holy and blameless in his sight by being in him (Christ) who we have redemption through his blood. God predestined for this adoption to be made possible through Jesus Christ. The mystery of Gods will is no longer a mystery. He Chose all who believe to be saved.


John 3:16-18New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

God is loving and patient not wanting anyone to perish. Totally against unconditional election where the unchosen are destined to perish.
2 Peter 3:9New International Version (NIV)

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.