Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull said:
Since Gods standard of obedience is perfection. An not one, but Christ ever lived, or will ever life up to that standard. (As Moses and Paul confirmed, One must obey ever word written, even Breaker the least of the law, as James affirmed, makes us guilty of the whole law)

What is your standard of obedience one must attain to gain or earn salvation?
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Bro...tragically...every time I see one push a self righteous working for....I think of the plenteous in number who will stand before the throne boasting of their works as a right to enter....only to be denied and cast fro the presence of the Lord....tragic....
 
dcontroversal said:
Bro...tragically...every time I see one push a self righteous working for....I think of the plenteous in number who will stand before the throne boasting of their works as a right to enter....only to be denied and cast fro the presence of the Lord....tragic....
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The real tragedy is that non-believers may come to this site, and if they catch one of those "you must abide and obey or you're going to hell, even after your salvation" junkies, that they may turn away, never to return.
 
dcontroversal said:
Bro...tragically...every time I see one push a self righteous working for....I think of the plenteous in number who will stand before the throne boasting of their works as a right to enter....only to be denied and cast fro the presence of the Lord....tragic....
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They say salvation is a shell game. You will never really know under which cup lies your true salvation.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
WHo? I hear this a lot. Yet I know no one in my 40 years following God who ever thought this..

I do not see this, nor have I done this.

People who are saved by God eternally desire to learn more about him, and understand, if God can save my eternal soul. What can he do for me here on earth.


Sadly I feel it is the workers who do not want to know more about God.. they do not understand his grace to begin with, so the foundation they have in thge knowledge of God is off base.. which makes everything else off base.
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Amen...his statement contradicts the fact that one who is saved desires the milk and meat of the word.....
 
limey410 said:
The real tragedy is that non-believers may come to this site, and if they catch one of those "you must abide and obey or you're going to hell, even after your salvation" junkies, that they may turn away, never to return.
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I heard that......tragic......!!
 
dcontroversal said:
I know....blows my mind that many have no real hope..........
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I don't understand how someone might think that God did all of that, gave us our inheritance, lives within us because He now can (wants to), but then He says.."but you have to _________ or else, forget about it" That is a human approach, something we might do to another as to reward our need or sense for power. But God has all of the power, so I'm not gonna try and take any away from Him. Not my God.
 
Blik said:
That God does not give us the power to establish our oun salvation is a fact that people just can't seem to comprehend. They forget about loving God, about serving God, and even about learning how to live in harmony with how God created the world they live in. All these are tossed out under the word "works".

Once people feel they have salvation they feel they need not learn anything else about the Lord who created them.
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It is so true. People get scared to dig too deep in case they find their faith
is in vain, so having just a loose grip is good enough.

It takes real faith to pursue ones doubts and questions, and to find good
answers. And even asking questions for some is too much, or imagining
there are believers like on cc who do not have one common outlook.

My experience is what is most common is people have very divergent views
and when it is broken down, everyone has a slightly different take on things.
 
PeterJens said:
It is so true. People get scared to dig too deep in case they find their faith
is in vain, so having just a loose grip is good enough.

It takes real faith to pursue ones doubts and questions, and to find good
answers. And even asking questions for some is too much, or imagining
there are believers like on cc who do not have one common outlook.

My experience is what is most common is people have very divergent views
and when it is broken down, everyone has a slightly different take on things.
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I do not have strong faith, I have a strong God. I trust and rely on Him, and what He has put in me. "Digging in" is not something I need to do. I don't need to gut it out for God, this is not a requirement for Him to dwell in me. I only need to trust and rely on my God. Rest in His peace and mercy, then let Him finish the work in me. It's not by my actions that this happens. It is by the almighty God. This doesn't mean that I don't work, it just means I fully understand that I am not the source of that work. I am merely a vessel, His temple.
 
limey410 said:
I don't understand how someone might think that God did all of that, gave us our inheritance, lives within us because He now can (wants to), but then He says.."but you have to _________ or else, forget about it" That is a human approach, something we might do to another as to reward our need or sense for power. But God has all of the power, so I'm not gonna try and take any away from Him. Not my God.
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There is a different model.
God is teaching us to ride our bicycle. He will show us how He does it, give us
all the support and encouragement and tell us to give it a go.

I find it too self depricating not to see when Paul describes us as co-heirs with Christ,
friends and brothers, called to love each other as Christ loved us, to serve one another,
to sacrificially do things, this is very much seeing what the Lord is and following out
of will and effort.

Words like learn, strive, persever, test, a servant called to invest talents, a wise
person making the best of relationships, being worthy, exercising the gifts of the Spirit,
these are all choices we make, out of our will, in obedience to the Lord.

And in the end if you do not see this is Jesus, you do actually miss everything.
So there is an element of fear, and care, of knowledge and effort.

But then maybe as children you never had to do chores around the house, and
just expected mum to do everything...
 
PeterJens said:
There is a different model.
God is teaching us to ride our bicycle. He will show us how He does it, give us
all the support and encouragement and tell us to give it a go.

I find it too self depricating not to see when Paul describes us as co-heirs with Christ,
friends and brothers, called to love each other as Christ loved us, to serve one another,
to sacrificially do things, this is very much seeing what the Lord is and following out
of will and effort.

Words like learn, strive, persever, test, a servant called to invest talents, a wise
person making the best of relationships, being worthy, exercising the gifts of the Spirit,
these are all choices we make, out of our will, in obedience to the Lord.

And in the end if you do not see this is Jesus, you do actually miss everything.
So there is an element of fear, and care, of knowledge and effort.

But then maybe as children you never had to do chores around the house, and
just expected mum to do everything...
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HAHAHA, you are assuming that my childlike faith in God is akin to a childhood where everything was done for me. You have zero idea of what my childhood was like.

But back to God now, instead of trite analogy's about bikes.
I didn't ask God to do what He did. I wasn't even around when it was fulfilled, I didn't choose any of His actions, I wasn't a participant in anyway.

I am however the grateful beneficiary of it all.

And I fully trust in what was done.

Once I understand and trust that I'm not walking around on cosmic eggshells with a God that I don't know, I can begin a trusting, loving relationship with Him a God that I do know.
Regardless of what I do or do not do. You see Peter, you keep acting as if you have some role other than your choice to accept and then trust him, for your salvation.
But you didn't have a choice then (when He made it possible) and you still don't now. Because it has already been done for you.
Finito, complete.
 
PeterJens said:
There is a different model.
God is teaching us to ride our bicycle. He will show us how He does it, give us
all the support and encouragement and tell us to give it a go.

I find it too self depricating not to see when Paul describes us as co-heirs with Christ,
friends and brothers, called to love each other as Christ loved us, to serve one another,
to sacrificially do things, this is very much seeing what the Lord is and following out
of will and effort.

Words like learn, strive, persever, test, a servant called to invest talents, a wise
person making the best of relationships, being worthy, exercising the gifts of the Spirit,
these are all choices we make, out of our will, in obedience to the Lord.

And in the end if you do not see this is Jesus, you do actually miss everything.
So there is an element of fear, and care, of knowledge and effort.

But then maybe as children you never had to do chores around the house, and
just expected mum to do everything...
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This is so very true. People have fell into belief that God teaches, helps, balances, steer, and pedal the bicycle for his children. The whole reason evil still exists is because God honors our free will to listen and choose to follow or not.

Free will doesnt get taken away and we become puppets.
 
limey410 said:
HAHAHA, you are assuming that my childlike faith in God is akin to a childhood where everything was done for me. You have zero idea of what my childhood was like.

But back to God now, instead of trite analogy's about bikes.
I didn't ask God to do what He did. I wasn't even around when it was fulfilled, I didn't choose any of His actions, I wasn't a participant in anyway.

I am however the grateful beneficiary of it all.

And I fully trust in what was done.

Once I understand and trust that I'm not walking around on cosmic eggshells with a God that I don't know, I can begin a trusting, loving relationship with Him a God that I do know.
Regardless of what I do or do not do. You see Peter, you keep acting as if you have some role other than your choice to accept and then trust him, for your salvation.
But you didn't have a choice then (when He made it possible) and you still don't now. Because it has already been done for you.
Finito, complete.
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Does God give you faith or tells you to have faith. See how many scriptures tells us to have faith.
 
Roughsoul1991 said:
Does God give you faith or tells you to have faith. See how many scriptures tells us to have faith.
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Not implying that we cant pray to God to help strengthen our faith but asking is faith a human reaction or a God sent reaction within us to believe.

If faith isnt a human reaction then to me scriptures telling us to believe, repent, and have faith is redundant if God does it all.
 
JIMBO43 said:
Would that be the Brothers and sisters you favor the most or would that be all and potential ? remember God does not show favoritism accept if you can be Humble as he favors this and resists the proud..:)
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The ironic thing about this is humility is linked to obedience in Scripture. Be a barean and look it out...
 
God doesn't demand faith - He provides it. How? By the hearing of Christ and what He has already done for us. Faith is a positive response to something that grace has already provided in Christ's work.

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

There are two different belief system at operation here. - 1) God demands things of us as in a dictator for us to do or else!

2) God supplies the things He knows we need because of His great mercy, grace and love for us.

I side with 2) myself.

John wrote about those that have come to know and believe the love that God has for us become perfected in that love because there is no fear - fear of punishment. It's in "knowing and believing" in His love that we grow.

God in Christ has already provided for us everything pertaining to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him. 2 Peter chapter 1
 
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