Not By Works

[willybob]

Why are you posting to yourself?

further explaining my previous post....be blessed

 

[willybob]

The new-generation hyper grace people don't understand the word "grace". They only see grace as favor, and something pleasing to the flesh.Most were born into the age of lustful entitlement, and it also bleeds through in their lack of understanding of the gospel .They don't see the full definition of grace, and the empowerment of the Spirit to live holy. This empowerment of the Spirit (the Spirit of Grace) could only be sent because of the finished works of Christ, establishing the new covenant, whereby men no longer need to live a life of sin, but can be made free from the bondage of sin...The entitlement society thinks they are entitled to Christ's righteous, rather than being righteous through faith...Luthers magical transfer on steroids, taken to its most extreme levels...the longer it gets handed down in the generations, the more greasy the grace becomes...That's why so many love the lies of Joseph Prince, the false prophet for the gullible and entitlement seekers...The power of suggestion (superstitions) have conditioned their minds into believing they are entitled to Christ's righteousness, because its so much easier than righteousness by faith, picking up your cross, crucify the flesh, and walking in holiness...flesh will always take the path of least resistance..that's why it has to be put to death in the baptism of repentance, or it will always rain and be our master, Gen 4-7

 

[FranC]

The new-generation hyper grace people don't understand the word "grace". They only see grace as favor, and something pleasing to the flesh.Most were born into the age of lustful entitlement, and it also bleeds through in their lack of understanding of the gospel .They don't see the full definition of grace, and the empowerment of the Spirit to live holy. This empowerment of the Spirit (the Spirit of Grace) could only be sent because of the finished works of Christ, establishing the new covenant, whereby men no longer need to live a life of sin, but can be made free from the bondage of sin...The entitlement society thinks they are entitled to Christ's righteous, rather than being righteous through faith...Luthers magical transfer on steroids, taken to its most extreme levels...the longer it gets handed down in the generations, the more greasy the grace becomes...That's why so many love the lies of Joseph Prince, the false prophet for the gullible and entitlement seekers...The power of suggestion (superstitions) have conditioned their minds into believing they are entitled to Christ's righteousness, because its so much easier than righteousness by faith, picking up your cross, crucify the flesh, and walking in holiness...flesh will always take the path of least resistance..that's why it has to be put to death in the baptism of repentance, or it will always rain and be our master, Gen 4-7

Hi Willybob,
This is such a great and true post, but a bit difficult to read.
I'm going to put some paragraphs, if you don't mind.
(for those reading along...)

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

The new-generation hyper grace people don't understand the word "grace".

They only see grace as favor, and something pleasing to the flesh. Most were born into the age of lustful entitlement, and it also bleeds through in their lack of understanding of the gospel .They don't see the full definition of grace, and the empowerment of the Spirit to live holy.

This empowerment of the Spirit (the Spirit of Grace) could only be sent because of the finished works of Christ, establishing the new covenant, whereby men no longer need to live a life of sin, but can be made free from the bondage of sin...

The entitlement society thinks they are entitled to Christ's righteous, rather than being righteous through faith...Luthers magical transfer on steroids, taken to its most extreme levels...the longer it gets handed down in the generations, the more greasy the grace becomes...

That's why so many love the lies of Joseph Prince, the false prophet for the gullible and entitlement seekers...The power of suggestion (superstitions) have conditioned their minds into believing they are entitled to Christ's righteousness, because its so much easier than righteousness by faith, picking up your cross, crucify the flesh, and walking in holiness...

flesh will always take the path of least resistance..that's why it has to be put to death in the baptism of repentance, or it will always reign and be our master, Gen 4-7

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

I happen to like Joseph Prince. He's very good at teaching. It's unfortunate that he IS a hyper-grace preacher.
He does say that this does not give a license to sin... but in the end, it is exactly what it does since no responsibility is placed on US but it is all placed on Jesus. Common sense alone tells us this cannot be true.

Thanks for some really good thoughts.

 

[FranC]

Before you turn and attempt to sling more false accusations about how i promote sin or such waffle..,i have already stated that everyone should add to your faith...virtue, knowledge, self control,perservance, GODLINESS, brotherly kindness and agape love.

Ariel,

You and Willybob are speaking past each other.

He's talking about being morally upright, as the bible does request,

and you're talking about sinless perfection, of which there is no such thing.

Being morally upright does not mean you will never sin.
Do you understand what Hyper-grace is??

They put all the responsibility for their actions on God and not on themselves.
We've had this conversation before.

I think it's important to really understand hyper-grace. I'm not saying you don't, but from some of your remarks it would seem that you don't...

Blessings.

 

[FranC]

Good morning Dcon

I was really writing to ask you something.
I noticed that there are some pretty weird persons on these threads...

So, Could you please finish your sentence?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

You said:
What is grammatically wrong with this:

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God..."

I said:
"WAS."
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Your reply was .... "AND..."

Then we both dropped out because it was a waste of time.
I'd be intersted in knowing the rest of the story...

Thanks.

(just because I keep telling you to post scripture doesn't mean that I think you don't know it)

 

[FranC]

Excuse me, did you say medication? Can I be the guinea pig?

Get on line.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel,

You and Willybob are speaking past each other.

He's talking about being morally upright, as the bible does request,

and you're talking about sinless perfection, of which there is no such thing.

Being morally upright does not mean you will never sin.
Do you understand what Hyper-grace is??

They put all the responsibility for their actions on God and not on themselves.
We've had this conversation before.

I think it's important to really understand hyper-grace. I'm not saying you don't, but from some of your remarks it would seem that you don't...

Blessings.

No we are not speaking past one another. He is not listening. I mentioned the concept of being blameless versus the concept of sinless perfection in hopes of him dropping the false accusations he made against me(which I clearly showed when he attempted to answer Peter a question directed toward me) but instead he goes into a rant against hypergrace.

If he wants to rant at people, it's his choice, just as it's mine to ignore him until he apologize.

Why don't you correct him?

Before anyone accuses me of being anger or holding a grudge.

I am not.

I hold no I'll will towards Willybob and was hoping to help him communicate his message in a way that his fellow sisters,and brothers would understand and accept.

Yes folks who don't have the Holy spirit may still reject it but often it's not the message that is rejected here in CC but the manner it's preaented.

For example your dislike of Calvinism can cause you to miss read certain posts, because they use words like election,predestination or eternal security.

People might not mean it in the Calvinist sense at all but the Biblical sense just as you do with the word free will.

I'm the same way if Willy Bob stop accusing people of teaching hypergrace, he might actually hear what they believe.

I have read both sides of hypergrace debate and know we have some components of it here on CC. Juar as we do have hardcore Calvinist on the site.

I would challenge you to have an actual dialog with both without the hostility.

Most are immature and can't handle the heat, but the older Calvinist will admit to believing in a type of free will.

G777 has said the Holy Spirit does chastens people of sin.


Personally what I don't like about Calvinist is that they have hundreds of words to define concepts not actually used in the Bible itself (concepts might be there but not the words themselves). You have to learn a new language to figure out what they are saying.

Hypergrace seems to focus always on God and what God does but often doesn't talk about what that means practically.


It is good to say follow the Holy spirit. It true and right, but I ask where does the Holy spirit lead you?

You see Fran just because I don't spend hours debating people, doesn't mean I haven't taken the time to research.

I believe in meeting people where they are, listening to what they say and affirming what I agree with, gently stating what I don't agree with. Them praying and fellowshipping together.
.I trust God to teach them and if I spoke anything worthwhile bring to their mind later when they study and pray.

When people tell me I am stupid and don't know anything that shows me a pridefilled heart...therefore an unreachable heart, at least by me. So I just pray and allow God to work. He normally sends another to reach out.

Anyway, going to read the rest of the post of folks I don't currently have on ignore and maybe a couple of those who I do to see if anything has changed.

 

[Ariel82]

have noticed for quite some time your tolerance of many things and many false beliefs, but you seem to have no tolerance for them that live holy and righteous, its seems to really bother you, so much so, that you will feverishly commit yourself to arguing in favor of a biblical forgone conclusion of sin, of the which is the opposite of what scripture declares..You seem to be very intolerant of righteous people, even Job....therefore you try and make him into a sinner.....God said Job feared God and hated evil....one CANNOT hate evil and still be a partaker of evil, its impossible..
i

So no change this morning just false accusations?

I clearly stated that Job was provoked into sinning by his three friends.

I did not say he loved evil or was guilty of one hundred sins as you falsely put into the straw man you are building.

It only takes one sin to make a person a sinner.

It is in the Bible that all are sinners, not a concept I made up myself.

I can get you the Bible verses later.

I don't tolerate sin, I love sinners where they are at in their walk with God.

God has taught me His agape love, perhaps He will teach you what it means of you ask Him to.

I don't yell at people most days.

People take my gentleness for weakness, but I know it's a fruit that God tended in my heart because I used to be brash and loud and stomping over folks too.

I don't see "sides" or "teams", but God's children seeking to do His will and learn to walk and speak His love AND truth to others (that was for you Meggido).

I see people at different parts of their walk and learning different lessons from God at this moment in their lives to,help them grow.


If you took someone else's medicine,would it be good for you?

At best it does nothing, at worst it kills you.

God's gives each us medicine to heal us where ever we are in life. Taking someone else's medicine is a bad idea. Force feeding others can kill them.


Some rebukes are not to those around you but towards the log in you own eye. Folks need to learn and take their own medicine instead of trying to give it to others.

Anyway I am going to read your other posts, but doubt it will be helpful.

Fyi. Job sin was to preach about HIS righteousness and complain about being unjustly punished (in defense against his friends false accusations that he was a sinner deserving punishment,which was a lie) instead of trusting God and proclaiming His right to do as He wills.

God's plan is higher than our mind can comprehend unless He shares part of it with us through His Holy spirit.

I am intolerant of self righteous people because pride, falsly judging others and not being willing to apologize is not a fruit of walking with the Spirit

 

[Ariel82]

Why are you posting to yourself?

That way you can make SURE the person you talk to agrees and affirms what you saying..,,why doesn't everyone do it?


(this is said tongue in cheek and will probably be condemned by someone)

 

[Ariel82]

Wow..,now this is a logical statement right here

...you are not even qualified to have an opinion

.....

Did I forget to put the word "not".


I am not going to answer the emotion lanced post but address the topic brought up:

1. What is biblical faith?

2. Does it require works or obedience as Willybob claims?

3. What does the Bible teach about imputed righteousness?

I doubt I will have time to rediscuss all of it but maybe a different approach will help?

So should we start with the Bible verses needed to clarify what is imputed righteousness?

Perhaps my brothers and sisters will help answer those three questions since I am so unqualified?

 

[Ariel82]

Romans 5.
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18Therefore, as one trespassf led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousnessg leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Ariel82]

I have to go about my day but leave folks to ponder those Bible verses and perhaps the words of John Wesley.

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 20 - The Lord Our Righteousness

"This is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our righteousness." Jer. 23:6


3. It would be a considerable step toward this glorious end, if we could bring good men to understand one another. Abundance of disputes arise purely from the want of this; from mere misapprehension. Frequently neither of the contending parties understands what his opponent means; whence it follows, that each violently attacks the other, while there is no real difference between them. And yet it is not always an easy matter to convince them of this; particularly when their passions are moved: It is then attended with the utmost difficulty. However, it is not impossible; especially when we attempt it, not trusting in ourselves, but having all our dependence upon Him with whom all things are possible. How soon is he able to disperse the cloud, to shine upon their hearts, and to enable them both to understand each other, and "the truth as it is in Jesus!"


******



5. But in what sense is this righteousness imputed to believers In this: all believers are forgiven and accepted, not for the sake of anything in them, or of anything that ever was, that is, or ever can be done by them, but wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and suffered for them. I say again, not for the sake of anything in them, or done by them, of their own righteousness or works: "Not for works of righteousness which we have done, but of his own mercy he saved us." "By grace ye are saved through faith, -- not of works, lest any man should boast;" but wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and suffered for us. We are "justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." And this is not only the means of our obtaining the favour of God, but of our continuing therein. It is thus we come to God at first; it is by the same we come unto him ever after. We walk in one and the same new and living way, till our spirit returns to God.

Anyway, good morning and God bless my brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

Trouble is DC they don't see behind the scenes of ones life and heart.
They are not even interested, no love, no compassion, no acceptance unless one conforms.

Very sad sad and it breaks my heart.

The truth is people can only share to the level they have achieved themselves.
And when you start talking and making friends it is amazing how much depth of knowledge
there is in peoples lives, and also ignorance.

The other problem is until people get to know you and understand what you are like and
how you function, they often hang on to the simple categories they live by.

And among these people there are many who love is ways that are self sacrificing, giving
to the point of breaking and not expecting anything back in return.

But you do not see it necessarily on a sunday, for 5 minutes of chit chat.
It is why house groups work very well, connecting and getting to know people.

 

[Ariel82]

Oh and we have Martin Luther teaching on the subject before folks defame him even more then already has been done.

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness

[1] There are two kinds of Christian righteousness, just as man’s sin is of two kinds. The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without. This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30: “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”
******
The second kind of righteousness is our proper righteousness, not because we alone work it, but because we work with that first and alien righteousness. This is that manner of life spent profitably in good works, in the first place, in slaying the flesh and crucifying the desires with respect to the self, of which we read in Gal. 5:24, “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” In the second place, this righteousness consists in love to one’s neighbor, and in the third place, in meekness and fear towards God.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Thank you for your kind words towards me, even though I don't get and truth is don't understand it.

You do do bless me with your posts.

Me thinks though that some will post I'm going to hell, if they don't they may think it.

Vile sin of the flesh that negates salvation

My dear BillG...Every single one of us falls short to the Glory of God...The difference between those who may want to throw stones is that your sin has been brought to the light because you live in the light, those who have the rocks in their hand live in the darkness, God bless you BillG...xox...

 

[PeterJens]

Anxiety

Do you have panic attacks, get overwhelmed by emotional abandonment and just freeze up?
Do you not think this might effect your theology and how you picture God?

If fear and judgement are debilitating realities, it is no surprise one regards fear as wrong.
But there is a strange flip side to this situation.

If one represses fear and anxiousness in ones life, ignoring it, and maybe even being fearful
and scared it will get stronger it runs away with you.

We are built to not ignore threats or problems, but to take them seriously. If we do the opposite
and repress them and fear them, we actually make them stronger and have a bigger impact in our
lives.

The cure is simple. Let yourself fear and be anxious and know it is just an emotion, God given,
and is just a warning of risk, but nothing else. It should not rule your life, or become a dominant
force in what you are doing. The feedback that the world has not fallen apart, nothing is different
and the risk was not as expected, then the feelings should dissapate.

Now for those on medication for anxiety, it is no wonder things do not get through, because one
is one step removed from reality. And any emotional empathy story, or talk about how the Lord
moves us will just bounce off because the trauma within is so much greater, nothing can get
passed it.

If you want to understand logs and specks in peoples eyes, this is it.

 

[graceNpeace]

My dear BillG...Every single one of us falls short to the Glory of God...The difference between those who may want to throw stones is that your sin has been brought to the light because you live in the light, those who have the rocks in their hand live in the darkness, God bless you BillG...xox...

Amen sister!

 

[Grace777x70]

No we are not speaking past one another. He is not listening. I mentioned the concept of being blameless versus the concept of sinless perfection in hopes of him dropping the false accusations he made against me(which I clearly showed when he attempted to answer Peter a question directed toward me) but instead he goes into a rant against hypergrace.

If he wants to rant at people, it's his choice, just as it's mine to ignore him until he apologize.

Why don't you correct him?

Before anyone accuses me of being anger or holding a grudge.

I am not.

I hold no I'll will towards Willybob and was hoping to help him communicate his message in a way that his fellow sisters,and brothers would understand and accept.

Yes folks who don't have the Holy spirit may still reject it but often it's not the message that is rejected here in CC but the manner it's preaented.

For example your dislike of Calvinism can cause you to miss read certain posts, because they use words like election,predestination or eternal security.

People might not mean it in the Calvinist sense at all but the Biblical sense just as you do with the word free will.

I'm the same way if Willy Bob stop accusing people of teaching hypergrace, he might actually hear what they believe.

I have read both sides of hypergrace debate and know we have some components of it here on CC. Juar as we do have hardcore Calvinist on the site.

I would challenge you to have an actual dialog with both without the hostility.

Most are immature and can't handle the heat, but the older Calvinist will admit to believing in a type of free will.

G777 has said the Holy Spirit does chastens people of sin.


Personally what I don't like about Calvinist is that they have hundreds of words to define concepts not actually used in the Bible itself (concepts might be there but not the words themselves). You have to learn a new language to figure out what they are saying.

Hypergrace seems to focus always on God and what God does but often doesn't talk about what that means practically.


It is good to say follow the Holy spirit. It true and right, but I ask where does the Holy spirit lead you?

You see Fran just because I don't spend hours debating people, doesn't mean I haven't taken the time to research.

I believe in meeting people where they are, listening to what they say and affirming what I agree with, gently stating what I don't agree with. Them praying and fellowshipping together.
.I trust God to teach them and if I spoke anything worthwhile bring to their mind later when they study and pray.

When people tell me I am stupid and don't know anything that shows me a pridefilled heart...therefore an unreachable heart, at least by me. So I just pray and allow God to work. He normally sends another to reach out.

Anyway, going to read the rest of the post of folks I don't currently have on ignore and maybe a couple of those who I do to see if anything has changed.

The reality of all this is that some of those very same ones that say people are "defending sinning" are displaying hypocrisy by the things they are saying about others. Another name for this type of behavior is called deceitfulness.

It is so ironic that those that accuse others of loving sinning are the very ones that are sinning now and doing it with full participation in it too.

Hypocrisy and deceit are in the same lists as living a homosexual lifestyle. In their own religion - they condemn themselves to hell. Thank God for the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and that they Lord will reveal His true nature to them.

The Lord will discipline His children and in this disciplining thus prove to be children of Him...

 

[Grace777x70]

I have posted this about the true grace of God in Christ over 50x times and yet in deceitfulness and obvious malice some continue to say the complete opposite of what is being said.

What kind of a spirit drives a person to continually exhibit this type of behavior? ..Selah.

Personally I believe that preaching the grace of God in the gospel of Christ without the other transformation part that grace brings is not right and perhaps there are some that do that - but I have not seen it.

I have seen others "accuse" them of saying it because they only hear the first part of grace being put forth which is the acceptance grace but didn't stay for the other transformational part - which is the empowering grace that brings true transformation of the life of Christ being manifested in and through us.

Thus they attack the "acceptance" part of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and call it "easy believe-ism".

 

[Grace777x70]

When the true grace of God in Christ is preached and taught right - it never leaves us in the same condition we were found in.

There are 2 aspects to grace and it can be seen in Jesus dealings with a woman caught in adultery.

The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. ( the law condemns us )

Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.


1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".

It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.

Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."

The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!

"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part.

This just drives them nuts and I understand why because it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with our religious man-made traditions and some church teachings from our denomination or "group".