Not By Works

[Justified]

Do we really think God is incapable of knowing our hearts?

Why do we lower God down to human nature. And not give him the credit he is due.

As David said, You KNEW me before my mothers womb..

God knows. He knew before time began, thats why he predestined us to be conformed to his image. Based on his knowledge.

How was residentalien not giving God his due? Take off your theological glasses and actually read what he wrote. Look at the verses he quoted.
Those that are of the OSAS view can fall into the "I don't have to do anything" mind set.
What was his last line? Do you not agree with this?

"People are looking for a cut and dried formula for salvation; but salvation isn't a formula, it's a relationship with God through the Lord Jesus."

 

[Justified]

You got it all wrong: Faith is a RESULT of GENUINE SALVATION. It WILL produce GOOD WORKS, but good works NEVER WILL IT PRODUCE SALVATION. You have got the Cart ahead of the Horse . . . Salvation. Look at the verses I just posted.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

2 Timothy 1:18 (NIV)
18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

How do I know Salvation comes to them that KNOW HIM, BEFORE they do their first DEED, motivated out of PURE LOVE.

So you have people saved before they even believe. You say "Faith is a RESULT of GENUINE SALVATION." How does that work?

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." but according to your view it should read "Whoever is saved will call on the name of the Lord"

The one that has the cart before the horse is you.

In Rom 10:14-15 Paul gives us the order of salvation.
1) Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.

Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation

 

[Justified]

Lol, salvation is a free gift. A gift cannot be earned…or deserved. We do not get to choose to repay a gift. It would be a insult.
Counted = credited. Lots of translations use “credited”.
Let’s say you did good things, like visiting widows and orphans. In regards to salvation, what would you deserve? Nothing. You deserve to burn forever in hell, because you are a sinner.
But let’s say you got baptized right before you did those good things. NOW what do you deserve?
Nothing. You deserve to burn in hell, because you are a sinner.
Back that up and say you confessed Jesus before men. What would you deserve? Nothing. You “deserve” death, for being a sinner.
So you heard the gospel. What would that “deserve”? Same thing, die and burn.
And if you miraculously, somehow, inexplicably, believed God, without hearing a word of the gospel,( just like Abraham?) What would you deserve?
Same exact thing. Because “nothing” you do will ever merit, or earn, or deserve salvation.

Faith is not a work is it. And God has placed a condition on salvation correct? That condition is faith in Christ Jesus, correct?
We see the conditional salvation from the beginning with Abraham.
Gen 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Abraham's faith was not a work but it was something that he had to do. God did not do it for him did He.
In the NT we see this same righteousness can be ours through faith.

Rom 3:22
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Now lest you think that I am talking about some form of works/merit for salvation let us look at
Gal 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Paul tells us in plain language that those that trust in Christ Jesus will be saved
Rom 10:13
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

But you may ask why would they call on the Lord but Paul anticipated that question and provided the answer
Rom 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

So we see that the order of salvation is clearly shown in scripture.
Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation

Faith is not a work it is not merit it does not even save us but it is the condition of our salvation. We are saved by Gods' grace because of our faith in Christ Jesus. Salvation is God gift to us and we praise Him for it.
Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[ResidentAlien]

Justified, what do you do with James 2:22?

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

This shows faith and works complimenting one another.

 

[Justified]

Justified, what do you do with James 2:22?

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

This shows faith and works complimenting one another.

The Bible clearly teaches that in all ages imputed righteousness (i.e., salvation) comes by faith not by works of the law. Gen 15:5-6. Abraham offered up Isaac years latter. Abraham showed his continuing faith/trust in God via this action.

If you are suggesting that a person is not saved unless they do good works then you are promoting a works salvation. You are also saying that Christ Jesus' death was not sufficient.
No one should tear a verse out of it's context so as to put forward bad theology.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The Bible clearly teaches that in all ages imputed righteousness (i.e., salvation) comes by faith not by works of the law. Gen 15:5-6. Abraham offered up Isaac years latter. Abraham showed his continuing faith/trust in God via this action.

If you are suggesting that a person is not saved unless they do good works then you are promoting a works salvation. You are also saying that Christ Jesus' death was not sufficient.
No one should tear a verse out of it's context so as to put forward bad theology.

No, I'm not promoting works salvation. That's a mischaracterization that faith only people make ad nauseum. Salvation is by faith together with works. That's what the New Testament teaches.

But I'm sure you already have your standard counterargument ready, so give it your best shot; but you can't change the scriptures.

 

[BillG]

Justified, what do you do with James 2:22?

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

This shows faith and works complimenting one another.

What do you do with it?

It doesn't say justified. It's says complete.

Let's look at @Justified said.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

He quoted V8.

That verse is true.

Moving onto verses 9:10
Yes we see we have not been saved by works but God is working in as a result of being in Christ for good works that he knew and prepared before we came to Christ to do them.

No mention of being justified.
But let's look at being justified, basically it means to be declared righteous.
This is not as a result of our works but based on our faith only.

As a result of this faith we will produce works per Ephesians.

We do not need to justify ourselves before God in order to be saved.
He knows if our faith in Jesus is true and meaningful then we are declared righteous.

Our works justify our faith before men.
This is what I feel James was addressing.

If we look at James 2 we see Abraham and Rahab mentioned.

Abram was called by God to leave Ur and go to a different land.

That he did.
That was faith.
Isaac was not born yet.

Yet we see

Genesis 15:6
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Faith together with with works is actually what saved people in the Old Testament too. Just read Hebrews 11.

 

[BillG]

Faith together with with works is actually what saved people in the Old Testament too. Just read Hebrews 11.

Who you taking to?

 

[Justified]

No, I'm not promoting works salvation. That's a mischaracterization that faith only people make ad nauseum. Salvation is by faith together with works. That's what the New Testament teaches.

But I'm sure you already have your standard counterargument ready, so give it your best shot; but you can't change the scriptures.

We are saved by faith not by works that is what the bible says. Eph 2:8-9 We will do good works, why, because we are saved again as the bible says. Eph 2:10 So when you say "Salvation is by faith together with works." that is promoting a works salvation.

Your own words betray you "faith only people make ad nauseum". By your own words we have to add something or we will not be saved. Sorry, you are wrong. You have hitched your horse to the wrong cart on this one.

 

[ResidentAlien]

We are saved by faith not by works that is what the bible says. Eph 2:8-9 We will do good works, why, because we are saved again as the bible says. Eph 2:10 So when you say "Salvation is by faith together with works." that is promoting a works salvation.

Your own words betray you "faith only people make ad nauseum". By your own words we have to add something or we will not be saved. Sorry, you are wrong. You have hitched your horse to the wrong cart on this one.

Brother, you need to spend some more time in your Bible.

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"—James 2:14

 

[Justified]

Faith together with with works is actually what saved people in the Old Testament too. Just read Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Notice it says MUST believe it does not say add and do works,

 

[Justified]

Brother, you need to spend some more time in your Bible.

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"—James 2:14

I could say the same for you. I understand what James is saying here but you, it is clear, do not. If you continue to pull text out of context you will always have a misunderstanding of scripture.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You got it all wrong: Faith is a RESULT of GENUINE SALVATION. It WILL produce GOOD WORKS, but good works NEVER WILL IT PRODUCE SALVATION. You have got the Cart ahead of the Horse . . . Salvation. Look at the verses I just posted.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

2 Timothy 1:18 (NIV)
18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

How do I know Salvation comes to them that KNOW HIM, BEFORE they do their first DEED, motivated out of PURE LOVE.

don’t you Mean to say “ James has it all wrong ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I trust Jesus. I confess that He is the Messiah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
However, you seem to speak like a typical Calvinist, that Jesus really meant to say you don’t really have to use your voice to confess. Bunk.

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Brother, you need to spend some more time in your Bible.

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"—James 2:14

Faith together with with works is actually what saved people in the Old Testament too. Just read Hebrews 11.

amen had Noah said I believe and then refused to do what God said would save him he would have drown.

The word “Faith” has been distorted by the worlds wisdom , into something that excuses man from obeying Gods word of salvation

Just like the serpent did in Eden

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How was residentalien not giving God his due?

if you understood what he was really saying you would know I have been listening to him for awhile k=now. I know exactly what he believes

Take off your theological glasses and actually read what he wrote.

I have come to the conclusion when people use this line of reasoning, They either have so little to say, in fact. Most people I see use this line are doing they they are accusing the other of doing. In fact. I think YOU are the one who needs to take your blinders off

Look at the verses he quoted.

I did. And I responded to him in kind. He refuses to respond to me. and here you are. Also refusing to respond to me. Just accusing me of things.

Those that are of the OSAS view can fall into the "I don't have to do anything" mind set.
What was his last line? Do you not agree with this?

"People are looking for a cut and dried formula for salvation; but salvation isn't a formula, it's a relationship with God through the Lord Jesus."

Your right, Salvation is not a formula, Jesus showed us what it looks like when he showed us the tax collector.

Sadly resident alien looks more like the pharisee.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Justified, what do you do with James 2:22?

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

This shows faith and works complimenting one another.

How do you interact James 2 with romans 4, eph 2, and titus 3?

You have to put them all in context.

James is not saying if we STOP working we will lose salvation. He is not saying that we are not saved UNTIL we do work.

He is questoning people who CLAIM to have faith. But are not showing the fruits of what that faith should bring.

Abrahams claim of faith was not justified decades after he was saved in Gen 15 before his child was even conceived.

People use james out of context to support their legalistic mindset. God will not accept your works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I'm not promoting works salvation. That's a mischaracterization that faith only people make ad nauseum. Salvation is by faith together with works. That's what the New Testament teaches.

But I'm sure you already have your standard counterargument ready, so give it your best shot; but you can't change the scriptures.

Here you go

Faith plus works

And he cl;aims he is not promoting salvation by works.. lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith together with with works is actually what saved people in the Old Testament too. Just read Hebrews 11.

the people in Heb 11 were saved before they did one work my friend.