Not By Works

[Guojing]

Considering they were circumcised at 8 days old I'm not sure such a choice was even offered them. Certainly they wouldn't have had the privileges that came via circumcision such as dwelling with God. Do you mean to ask if a Hebrew refused to circumcise their son at 8 days old?

God's covenant with Israel wasn't about them attaining eternal life, though, so the bigger question is whether non-Israelites during the time preceeding Christ had access to eternal life and whether a person who was hereditarily linked to Abraham had to join the community of Israel to attain salvation. That's the one I entertain is possible.

Yes, as I have mentioned to dcon "So you are saying any Jew who descended from him during the OT can use your reasoning, refuse to circumcise his kids, and his kids will be alright with God? "

That was the scenario.

As for your second paragraph, no, that is not possible either. God made it clear in Exodus 12:48

And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

God viewed physical circumcision as a crucial requirement in the OT, you cannot run away from that when you read the OT literally.

 

[Bbrdrd]

As I have mentioned to dcon "So you are saying any Jew who descended from him during the OT can use your reasoning, refuse to circumcise his kids, and his kids will be alright with God? "

That was the scenario

The refusal to circumcise would have resulted in being put out of the camp and suffered consequences in this life, but the larger question remains of whether eternal life would be something accessible to them.

So did God desire the salvation of the Assyrians, Moabites, Canaanites, and other groups that were not included within His exclusive covenant with Israel and could they find eternal life apart from the law? I say yes to both of those and they inform the answer to whether the offspring of an apostate from Israel could be saved if they served God dutifully apart from the law.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

Yeah, along with...

Context, exegis-whatever and Hermanutic-something-a-ma-jig... and what-cha-ma-call-it like words...

DRAW CLOSE TO GOD


"Jesus knew that to unlock the spiritual truth found in the Bible, we need two things: God’s help and the right heart attitude. Jesus explains: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.” Do you see why it is that grasping the spiritual truth found in the Bible may be considered a matter of privilege? Jehovah, the “Lord of heaven and earth,” may hide or reveal the truth according to his sovereign will. But God is not arbitrary in this matter of revelation. On what basis does he reveal Bible truth to some and not to others?


Jehovah favors the humble, not the haughty. (James 4:6) He hides the truth from “wise and intellectual ones”—worldly-wise and learned ones who in their pride and self-reliance feel no need for his help. (1 Corinthians 1:19-21) But he reveals the truth to “babes”—those who come to him with sincere hearts, showing childlike humility. (Matthew 18:1-4; 1 Corinthians 1:26-28) God’s Son, Jesus, saw such responses firsthand. Many proud, highly educated religious leaders did not get the sense of Jesus’ message, but humble fishermen did. (Matthew 4:18-22; 23:1-5; Acts 4:13) At the same time, some wealthy and educated ones who showed genuine humility became Jesus’ followers.—Luke 19:1, 2, 8; Acts 22:1-3."

The only time I see... the word "context" is when you're trying to make plain words of Scripture say something else

 

[Bbrdrd]

The truth that works complete a saved person (new works outwardly mirroring their new heart), does not contradict the truth that a person is saved because they believed in Jesus, and were born again. They are not saved because they showed fruit, but quite the opposite, they showed fruit in time because they were saved. This distinction is important.

The reason why we capitalize on grace is just like there are lawless people out there who trample grace that you warn about, there are also people out there, that nullify grace, and the Gospel, that we warn about. There are also various people who over the course of this thread denied that they have ever sinned in any regard since they accepted Christ, so since they are doing better than the apostles, maybe the apostles weren't saved.

I did not see any one of our friends fight against obedience, or deny obedience. We ONLY emphasize that obedience springs from salvation. This is in response teachings that we must "keep working to maintain salvation", and other teachings contradicting the Scriptures and denying eternal security, such as where it says that Holy Spirit was deposited into us as a GUARANTEE, or Christ promising to timely complete the good work He started in us. We are here because capitalizing on obedience combined with denying eternal security is a toxic brew, and it's not the Gospel. It's the unconditional love and grace that changes a person and causes them to want to obey and they are then shepherded with Jesus' staff (and rod if needed), unto obedience and producing fruit. But there are some people that seem to believe that God doesn't know what He's doing.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
As opposed to Romans 3:18 quoting Psalms about the ungodly, "There is no fear of God before their eyes."...

So there's not going to be departing, "walking away", people of the New covenant have a new heart. We get chastisements and warnings in the New testament exactly because God is working these to shepherd His people from walking away. We are sons not bastards, and we are chastised and warned so we do not end up condemned with the world (1 Cor 11:32). One who will not obey God and ignores Him to death, from these verses, did not have a new birth/new heart. So like you said, salvation and obedience do go together, the problem is when people apply an unbiblical causality between them, and then go on to deny Biblical eternal security - this is as bad as preaching security with kicking obedience out (like megachurches do), neither is the Gospel as taught by the apostles. Cheers

After some reflection, I think I should probably divulge why I am so concerned with obedience rather than what has come to characterize the "grace" message. There are essentially 3 reasons for it. The first being theological, second practical, and third personal.

The theological reason is that with every reminder of unconditional forgiveness the problem of sin gets smaller and the smaller we see the problem of sin, the smaller grace becomes because we become less and less guilty so need to be forgiven of less and less.

The practical is that I've ran into many people who flippantly write off their sins as "mistakes" or even de-personalize them by making statements about how it's just their "sinful nature" rather than holding themselves accountable. With a person who is seeking justification in the law there is the chance for them to discover their need for a savior and turn around, but with someone who already believes themselves saved the possibility that they truly need Jesus will never occur to them.

Finally, my own discovery of God's love was through discovering the boundaries He had set for me. People who claimed they loved me stood by while I drank myself into oblivion night after night and neglected pretty much every aspect of personal health. They indulged my destructive habits rather than showing me hard love. In the same way I think many well-meaning Christians give positive support to individuals who are on a fast track to hell and do so by hampering discussions that center around God's holy standards through debate over whether works have meritorious value in salvation.

 

[Guojing]

The refusal to circumcise would have resulted in being put out of the camp and suffered consequences in this life, but the larger question remains of whether eternal life would be something accessible to them.

So did God desire the salvation of the Assyrians, Moabites, Canaanites, and other groups that were not included within His exclusive covenant with Israel and could they find eternal life apart from the law? I say yes to both of those and they inform the answer to whether the offspring of an apostate from Israel could be saved if they served God dutifully apart from the law.

The answer for both your paragraphs lies in Ephesians 2:11-12

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

During the OT, in time past, the only nation that God made a covenant with was with Israel. Any Gentiles, whether Assyrians or otherwise, in order to be saved then, must be saved thru Israel.

That is what Exodus 12:48 was saying. They could not be saved in any other way. Rahab was saved because she helped Israel hide the spies, and later marry one of them, Salmon, . Ruth was saved thru marrying Boaz, and so on so forth. Had they been males, they would have to undergo circumcision too, but the point was, all Gentiles that were saved in the OT had to be saved thru the rise of Israel.

That is why the mystery revelation given to Paul was very hard for the other Jews to understand, including Peter. After Israel rejected their Messiah for the final time thru the stoning of Stephen, Paul would reveal that, but now, Gentiles can be saved thru the fall of Israel, as detailed in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[Bbrdrd]

The answer for both your paragraphs lies in Ephesians 2:11-12

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

During the OT, in time past, the only nation that God made a covenant with was with Israel. Any Gentiles, whether Assyrians or otherwise, in order to be saved then, must be saved thru Israel.

That is what Exodus 12:48 was saying. They could not be saved in any other way. Rahab was saved because she helped Israel hide the spies, and later marry one of them, Salmon, . Ruth was saved thru marrying Boaz, and so on so forth. Had they been males, they would have to undergo circumcision too, but the point was, all Gentiles that were saved in the OT had to be saved thru the rise of Israel.

That is why the mystery revelation given to Paul was very hard for the other Jews to understand, including Peter. After Israel rejected their Messiah for the final time thru the stoning of Stephen, Paul would reveal that, but now, Gentiles can be saved thru the fall of Israel, as detailed in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

While I agree all gentiles had to be saved through Israel, it is in the same way as we are all saved through Israel today. Through Israel being the bearers of the promises of Messiah.

Of course we're getting deep into the thickets on these topics and far away from the premise of this thread.

 

[Guojing]

While I agree all gentiles had to be saved through Israel, it is in the same way as we are all saved through Israel today. Through Israel being the bearers of the promises of Messiah.

Of course we're getting deep into the thickets on these topics and far away from the premise of this thread.

No, I am saying Israel is now an enemy with God. God has become an enemy with them, for our sakes, so that we can be saved (Romans 11:28).

We are now saved without Israel.

 

[Bbrdrd]

No, I am saying Israel is now an enemy with God. God has become an enemy with them, for our sakes, so that we can be saved (Romans 11:28).

We are now saved without Israel.

I'd suggest a re-read of John 4, but the way you carve apart Scripture it probably wouldn't do any good.

 

[Guojing]

I'd suggest a re-read of John 4, but the way you carve apart Scripture it probably wouldn't do any good.

I am quoting Romans 11. That is doctrine for the Body of Christ now.

Israel was still God's favorite nation during the time of John's gospel. We can benefit from reading the gospel of John, as we do from the rest of the OT, but you need to bear in mind Paul is your apostle.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

My answer is truthful.....and if you have even bothered to actually open your eyes genius, I have said from day one on this site that CONTEXT determines the aim of scripture....the post you directed at me before this one misses the mark by 5 light years in describing my use of and promotion of context....like I said...you are not very honest!

it is the Spirit that determines the aim of the Scripture, not just Context.

and it is with Spiritual eyes it is best to understand the Scriptures.

 

[star]

Work is such an AWESOME thing don't you think? Without Work we would have no Cars, Tvs, Phones, Grocery Stores, Clothes, Books, Dishes, Electronics, Government, Legislation, Laws, Peace, Prosperity, Money, Schools, Houses, Ect. .

You are misrepresenting my post. Not very nice. Works as in salvation, works as in keeping salvation. I believe you knew that

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

I am thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

do you not listen to the Spirit? is it not leading you into all Truth?

 

[EleventhHour]

do you not listen to the Spirit? is it not leading you into all Truth?

I think that is a good question for you to ponder since you believe your works are saving you, correct?

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

EleventhHour said:
I am thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

do you not listen to the Spirit? is it not leading you into all Truth?

I think that is a good question for you to ponder since you believe your works are saving you, correct?

i was asking You because you said that you were, "thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

but the Spirit of God leads into ALL truth, not man, or any certain ideas that any person or group decides on. so why wouldn't the Spirit be able to let me know if my faith is genuine or not?


that is why i said, "do you not listen to the Spirit, is it not leading you into all truth?" we do not have to wait til death to know things. "seek and you shall find", "ask and it will be given unto you". ☺

 

[EleventhHour]

EleventhHour said:
I am thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

do you not listen to the Spirit? is it not leading you into all Truth?





i was asking You because you said that you were, "thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

but the Spirit of God leads into ALL truth, not man, or any certain ideas that any person or group decides on. so why wouldn't the Spirit be able to let me know if my faith is genuine or not?


that is why i said, "do you not listen to the Spirit, is it not leading you into all truth?" we do not have to wait til death to know things. "seek and you shall find", "ask and it will be given unto you". ☺

I think you misunderstood.... my statement was a response to yours where you stated good works are necessary for salvation ......which

means that a person who believes that will have to wait until death to know if they are saved... since how many good works save?

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

You are misrepresenting my post. Not very nice. Works as in salvation, works as in keeping salvation. I believe you knew that

or ... perhaps you misunderstood? maybe i thought to say that because of what you said. possibly the Spirit even led me to say it. why assume bad things?

you seemed to be against works, but see ... Work is a Good Thing. ☺

not Even ONLY good .... but Necessary. as in the Physical -- so in the Spiritual.


John 5
17But Jesus said, “My Father has never stopped working, and this is why I keep on working.”

John 10:32,37
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? …

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

I think you misunderstood.... my statement was a response to yours where you stated good works are necessary for salvation ......which

means that a person who believes that will have to wait until death to know if they are saved... since how many good works save?

John 10
37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”


this is how we can believe and know we are IN Him. we will know -- when we do His works.

 

[star]

or ... perhaps you misunderstood? maybe i thought to say that because of what you said. possibly the Spirit even led me to say it. why assume bad things?

you seemed to be against works, but see ... Work is a Good Thing. ☺

not Even ONLY good .... but Necessary. as in the Physical -- so in the Spiritual.


John 5
17But Jesus said, “My Father has never stopped working, and this is why I keep on working.”

John 10:32,37
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? …

You seem to justify salvation, keeping salvation by works only. To me, that's a bad thing. However, think and believe as you wish.

 

[Bbrdrd]

I am quoting Romans 11. That is doctrine for the Body of Christ now.

Israel was still God's favorite nation during the time of John's gospel. We can benefit from reading the gospel of John, as we do from the rest of the OT, but you need to bear in mind Paul is your apostle.

As I said, the manner in which you carve up the Bible renders actual understanding out of reach.

Paul was the apostle to the gentiles not as a matter of being the exclusive source of doctrine, he himself pointed Timothy to the written scripture which arguably could have been considered to not even include his letters at the time.

As I said before, both the novelty of the doctrine and the inappropriate manner in which it is proof texted for support render it unacceptable.

 

[EleventhHour]

John 10
37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”


this is how we can believe and know we are IN Him. we will know -- when we do His works.

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:28-29