Not By Works

[mailmandan]

And this faith is a gift of God. It doesn’t resonate from fallen man.

God draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65) so in that sense, I would say that faith is a gift, yet we still must exercise faith in Christ in order to be saved. Ultimately, salvation is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 (AMPC) - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

Unless the Father draws us and enables us, we would NEVER come to Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but that doesn't mean He forces us to place our faith in Christ for salvation. We are not simply zapped with saving faith in Christ with no choice in the matter. We must choose to place our faith in Christ for salvation. Prior to my conversion, I clearly recall the Lord drawing me in and enabling me to believe, yet after that, I was at a crossroad and chose to believe in Christ for salvation. I was not forced to believe. I had a choice.

 

[PennEd]

I would like to take another go at this.
Irresistible Grace to me means God conceived, knit us, and birthed us, as a new creation in Christ.

If we look at our natural conception and birth, we see we had absolutely no control over it. God did. Our parents did. And then our moms did.

Why would we think that we had any control over our Spiritual conception and birth?

Especially since John specifically tells us our Spiritual birth is entirely of Him. Both as the procuring factor, and the ultimate fulfillment.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Once people understand the true Gospel and in it that God does not owe man a thing, nor does he owe any man opportunity, their understanding of God will grow by leaps and bounds, and their fear and awe of him will grow exponentially.

I get the feeling listening to messages, blogs, social media of people talking about God that they think he is a pushover. And that is scary!

People should consider this;

Imagine: God has no right, according to some, to exercise justice on a human at any given moment, who is sinful, guilty, wicked, lost, unless he first gives them an opportunity for salvation (mercy.) The description of the human here is applicable to all.

If (really "since") He does not do this (offer every single person ever an opportunity) he is deemed unfair and not a God of love, and is subject to mans criteria. Isn't this man making God in his own image? Why yes, of course it is.

No judge on this earth would be held to such a standard, nor would they be judged by the same criteria, demanding they give every criminal an opportunity to vote for receiving mercy, or not. That would be absolutely absurd and such a judge would be removed from the bench. An earthly judge has the authority to exercise justice at will, and does so.

God has that same right, but his right transcends mans by unimaginable lengths because he is holy, perfect, just, and good.

God shows mercy to whom He wills to show mercy, and also reveals himself to whom he wills. Note Exodus 33:12-23; Matthew 11:25-30; Romans 9. He does not owe this to all men.

If He owes them the opportunity then that’s the antithesis of grace...obligation.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thank you..it’s taken a while for me to be able to do that.....but feel safe to do so...without fear of being attacked.

Thanks to oncefallen warning.....I needed that warning also because I know I had been very rude to you and others on here.

I feel much safer now to discuss and ask questions.....x

No worries, I forgive you. Others should see your Christianity and how you have grown. It takes a humble believer to admit what you've admitted, and seek reconciliation.

Thank you sister, I love you in Christ. No grudges for the past. If I've offended you, I am truly sorry and seek forgiveness and reconciliation.

Now, let's discuss the glorious Gospel of our God!

 

[preacher4truth]

@eternally-gratefully, I am waiting for you to address all this:

I don't have a right to do this? Isn't this what you are saying? Could you make comprehensible sentences please, unlike the above? They are hard to decipher.

It appears you are saying I have no right to make claims yet it also appears you've granted yourself the right make claims.



Oh, I have a point.

First things first. When I said you don't possess the knowledge to claim "no on <sic>" makes demands on God, nothing I stated meant the entire world, nation, universe or a certain country. You came back and said you meant on here.

I wasn't speaking of the entire world as I figured you meant on here.

Sorry, once again, but you don't possess such knowledge on this site or anywhere else. None of us are the spokesmen for this entire community and shouldn't appoint nor appear to have appointed ourselves to such a stead. Right?

Lastly there is proof some demand God owes an opportunity to all or he cannot be God and cannot send them to hell unless he does, and if he doesn't he's not a God of love.

 

[EleventhHour]

God draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65) so in that sense, I would say that faith is a gift, yet we still must exercise faith in Christ in order to be saved. Ultimately, salvation is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 (AMPC) - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

Unless the Father draws us and enables us, we would NEVER come to Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but that doesn't mean He forces us to place our faith in Christ for salvation. We are not simply zapped with saving faith in Christ with no choice in the matter. We must choose to place our faith in Christ for salvation. Prior to my conversion, I clearly recall the Lord drawing me in and enabling me to believe, yet after that, I was at a crossroad and chose to believe in Christ for salvation. I was not forced to believe. I had a choice.

Amen!!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65) so in that sense, I would say that faith is a gift, yet we still must exercise faith in Christ in order to be saved. Ultimately, salvation is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 (AMPC) - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

Unless the Father draws us and enables us, we would NEVER come to Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but that doesn't mean He forces us to place our faith in Christ for salvation. We are not simply zapped with saving faith in Christ with no choice in the matter. We must choose to place our faith in Christ for salvation. Prior to my conversion, I clearly recall the Lord drawing me in and enabling me to believe, yet after that, I was at a crossroad and chose to believe in Christ for salvation. I was not forced to believe. I had a choice.

Again, God doesn’t force salvation on anyone my friend. Y’all have took that ball and ran with it. He does not force salvation on anyone. We do not teach that. Please don’t say God forces salvation on ppl.

What we teach is God effectually draws ppl to Himself. Look at John 6:37...All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. Notice He said all the Father gave Him will come to Him. It’s a guarantee. It is set in stone. This is backed up later in John 6:44. Then the Christ reiterates this “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”John 6:65] Man’s will is not free, that is why they must be called and drawn by the Father.

 

[preacher4truth]

If He owes them the opportunity then that’s the antithesis of grace...obligation.

Yep. It destroys grace. Grace is not obligation.

Would it be fair to say people need to revisit grace, and in turn, be floored by what it really is? I mean, God's Son nailed to a tree paying for our wicked sins????

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I would like to take another go at this.
Irresistible Grace to me means God conceived, knit us, and birthed us, as a new creation in Christ.

If we look at our natural conception and birth, we see we had absolutely no control over it. God did. Our parents did. And then our moms did.

Why would we think that we had any control over our Spiritual conception and birth?

Especially since John specifically tells us our Spiritual birth is entirely of Him. Both as the procuring factor, and the ultimate fulfillment.

I love the spirit you display on here.

 

[fredoheaven]

Per Matthew Henry, "Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not the mere product of any natural abilities, nor of any merit of our own..." so the exercise of faith is not a meritorious works.

He further said "The great objects of faith are made known by divine revelation, and made credible by the testimony and evidence which God hath given us; and that we believe to salvation and obtain salvation through faith is entirely owing to divine assistance and grace; God has ordered all so that the whole shall appear to be of grace" So accordingly, salvation is obtain through faith yet with divine assistance and grace. The holy Spirit indeed is working via convicting sinners/ lost men and upon hearing of the word of God and had someone believe the gospel is therefore saved, hence exercising faith in Christ for salvation according to Mathew henry is not a merit.

 

[mailmandan]

So, God elected those He knew would be willing. Then that means He never elected those He knew wouldn’t be willing. So even in your schema, you have God leaving ppl in their fallen condition.

I don't understand your logic in regards to election and probably never will. No point in going round in circles answering questions. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved and man has no choice in the matter and never will.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Per Matthew Henry, "Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not the mere product of any natural abilities, nor of any merit of our own..." so the exercise of faith is not a meritorious works.

He further said "The great objects of faith are made known by divine revelation, and made credible by the testimony and evidence which God hath given us; and that we believe to salvation and obtain salvation through faith is entirely owing to divine assistance and grace; God has ordered all so that the whole shall appear to be of grace" So accordingly, salvation is obtain through faith yet with divine assistance and grace. The holy Spirit indeed is working via convicting sinners/ lost men and upon hearing of the word of God and had someone believe the gospel is therefore saved, hence exercising faith in Christ for salvation according to Mathew henry is not a merit.

Wonderful! He was a Calvinist, too, and that buttresses our stance. The lost are gifted faith and they exercise it and are saved. That’s what we’ve said all along. That’s for the support! I truly appreciate it.

 

[EleventhHour]

What we teach is God effectually draws ppl to Himself.

If it is effectual then that means His will is done without fail.

It is clear that you teach that is the "grace" itself is irresistible as away to circumvent the issue of force.

 

[EleventhHour]

I don't understand your logic in regards to election and probably never will. No point in going round in circles answering questions. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved and man has no choice in the matter and never will.

Amen!!!

This thread is not about Calvin's and Augustine's teachings anyway there are many other threads on that topic... @Nehemiah6 has several.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I don't understand your logic in regards to election and probably never will. No point in going round in circles answering questions. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved and man has no choice in the matter and never will.

Hold on a minute. You’ve said repeatedly God, via His foreknowledge, knew who would be willing, and He elected them based upon that foreknowledge. That means those He knew would never be willing He didn’t elect. You’ve just taught He passed over those He knew wouldn’t be willing by implication and the logical conclusion of your argument here.

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't understand your logic in regards to election and probably never will. No point in going round in circles answering questions. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved and man has no choice in the matter and never will.

He isn't offering logic, and it isn't fatalism, it's biblical truth. God does not owe man a choice, that decisional regeneration fallacy has come into the church of late, it says God owes man opportunity or he isn't fair. That isn't biblical whatsoever.

 

[EleventhHour]

If He owes them the opportunity then that’s the antithesis of grace...obligation.

Interesting
'
No has stated anything with regards to God owing, that is your straw man.

God has already pronounced the He gives each man the opportunity.... your dogma denies this and instead limits the opportunity and

attempts to justify this limited opportunity (which is contrary to scripture) by stating He does not owe.


That is right He does not owe... He gives... the non Calvinist God gives.

 

[preacher4truth]

I need to ask you a question..first..no one can brain wash me...I’m open..but that doesn’t mean I take it on board.

When you say the elect..do you mean the chosen ones by God?
Does he have a purpose for them to do his will on this earth?

Because I believe he does.....he knows who will carry out his will.

To Glorify His Name and “Only His Name”,

Philippians 2:12-13 speak to this.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I don't understand your logic in regards to election and probably never will. No point in going round in circles answering questions. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved and man has no choice in the matter and never will.

You posted these...

Yet God elects beforehand who will be saved based on what? If it's not based on His foreknowledge of knowing who will receive Christ through faith, then what? We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.

If election is not based whatsoever on man’s free will to choose Christ involving God’s foreknowledge, then all you’re left with is fatalistic determination based on mysterious reasons, since we are all sinners and none of us deserve God’s mercy and grace. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)

You said God elects those He knows will be willing. He uses His foreknowledge that way. So, by implication and logic, He did not elect those He knew would not be willing. You can’t say He elected those He knew would be willing, and then turn around and say He elected the whole human race. Any way you slice it, election has God justly leaving ppl in their already condemned state.

 

[jackrosie]

Philippians 2:12-13 speak to this.

I have NIV
Shining as Stars.....certainly spoke to me.....