Not By Works

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Melach said:
macabeus already answered this good here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4830#post-3897892

i already also posted leviticus the difference between willful rebellion high handed sin and unwillful sin. like accidenatlly going over speed limit due to ignorance, is not the same as adultery. the only reason people claim that is to justify sin while claiming not to justify sin.

both are true both are in the epistle of john. its about your life. if your life is characterized by keeping the commandments of God. nobody is expecting Jesus like obedience. God is expecting a clean heart yielding to Him to the best of their abilities, a loving serving humble servant. His commands are not grievous. remember the epistle of john was about gnostics who believed they had no sin in the spirit, only flesh had sin. much like some cults today teach.

1 corinthians 6:9-10
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Macabeus? Who is that?

in Deuteronomy says whoever does not obey every word is cursed. Paul reiterated it in Galatians 3. The only unintentional sin is sin of an unknown kind (did not know it was sin) but Paul makes it clear. Even those sins are condemned
 
dcontroversal said:
Nice try......try again....the word carries the idea of being complete...NOT PERFECT in the sense of how we use the word.....and yes, the bible does lay forth eternal security...take the blinders off....
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Well then be complete as your father in heaven is complete. Be ye pure as your father in heaven is pure. Seriously, I suggest you get out your concordance and study every reference (verse/passage) with those words complete, mature, perfect, and believe what you read.
 
stonesoffire said:
Lol...EG there's so much going on right now that I can't even remember what I posted. But, just to answer this post, there's those that come under the light of understanding, but not into the light of conversion. I read this as a footnote in my Oxford study bible.

I can truthfully say that was my experience from childhood to my early twenties when I surrendered and was converted. Then about 3 months later, baptized in Holy Spirit.

In my early "light" if I had died in that state, would I be in heaven?

I can only point to scripture...

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from the Law as follows: "The person who obeys these things will find life by them."


6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will go up to heaven?' (that is, to bring the Messiah down),


7 or 'Who will go down into the depths?' (that is, to bring the Messiah back from the dead)."


8 But what does it say? "The message is near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart." This is the message about faith that we are proclaiming:

9 If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


10 For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.


11 The Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will never be ashamed."


Back later.
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So you were baptized into Christ 3 months later? This makes no sense sis
 
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BibletruthSOP said:
Well then be complete as your father in heaven is complete. Be ye pure as your father in heaven is pure. Seriously, I suggest you get out your concordance and study every reference (verse/passage) with those words complete, mature, perfect, and believe what you read.
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We are pure, complete, perfect based solely upon the work of Jesus, it is completely and apart from any human effort or input.
 
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BibletruthSOP said:
Well then be complete as your father in heaven is complete. Be ye pure as your father in heaven is pure. Seriously, I suggest you get out your concordance and study every reference (verse/passage) with those words complete, mature, perfect, and believe what you read.
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Listen pal...I do study every word....have since 1990 and studied through the bible twice a year in seminary x 4 years and studied on average of 40 to to 65 hours a week....so......if you think I shoot from the hip...good for you!!
 
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Budman said:
This was directed to me. That's why you didn't say "we".

As exampled by this next post:



And here is where you basically accuse me of not loving God for asking if one can sin so much as to lose salvation.



And the following is the crux of my arguement:



This applies to people in general as well as individuals as evidenced by you saying:



And I even asked you if what you posted was directed at individuals:



And you said:



Which does indeed make you a fruit inspector.

And then you went on to state I'm a liar for saying you are claiming if we don't produce fruit, whether generally or individually, our faith is not genuine.
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I
Budman said:
This was directed to me. That's why you didn't say "we".

As exampled by this next post:



And here is where you basically accuse me of not loving God for asking if one can sin so much as to lose salvation.



And the following is the crux of my arguement:



This applies to people in general as well as individuals as evidenced by you saying:



And I even asked you if what you posted was directed at individuals:



And you said:



Which does indeed make you a fruit inspector.

And then you went on to state I'm a liar for saying you are claiming if we don't produce fruit, whether generally or individually, our faith is not genuine.
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I don't see any fruit inspection in any of your quotes. Do you know what an inspector is? Do you know what the verb inspect means? Where did I inspect your fruit? What fruit of yours did I examine carefully and assess it's genuinity? Stating a scriptural principle is not inspecting fruit. You have no argument, so you have to change the meaning of words.

AND you are the one who judges by calling people hypocrites and spiritually dead. So even if I was fruit inspecting, Which I was not, you would be judging me for doing something you yourself do (Romans 2:1).

You should take the beam out of your own eye...
 
UnderGrace said:
There is no mob effect it is just being challenged, I am challenged on many threads, tongues being one, I do not take it personally and say they are being a mob.

Salvific faith is defined in that it results in salvation/justification, that is why it described with the word salvific.
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False accusations, like accusing me of fruit inspection, is not a challenge.

if a mob misrepresents you because one or two people threw out an unsubstantiated false accusation, then your comparison would be valid. False misrepresentation is not a challenge.

I have challenged EVERYONE to show ONE instance where I inspected fruit. No one has succeeded in doing so.
 
UnderGrace said:
We are pure, complete, perfect based solely upon the work of Jesus, it is completely and apart from any human effort or input.
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dcontroversal said:
Listen pal...I do study every word....have since 1990 and studied through the bible twice a year in seminary x 4 years and studied on average of 40 to to 65 hours a week....so......if you think I shoot from the hip...good for you!!
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Really not impressed with spouted credentials. I remember speaking with a seminary graduate about a certain subject (really important subject but not specifically the subject at hand) and as we spoke he declared his masters paper was on that specific subject. That didn't end our conversation. We spoke for about a half hour and he was visibly physically shaking toward the end...not angry, wild eyed, or anything like that, but visibly physically shaking. I was rather taken aback so changed the conversation and we went about the business we were involved with. I knew he had seen truth in the word we were discussing, but I, at that time, was under the impression folks claiming interest in the bible, would be joyous in seeing truth. But this is often not the case, especially when it comes to "stop sinning".
 
eternally-gratefull said:
I have him on ignore for some reason. Can’t even remember why. most likely his attitude
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He has me on ignore because he agreed with DC that "it takes a period of growth and maturity for a Christian to bear ANY fruit". I pointed out that was a universal statement that even if it is true in some cases (which I don't think it is), yet there is no scriptural basis to make a universal statement like that as if it applies to everyone. He didn't get it. Couldn't follow a rational response to a statement, and therefore put me on ignore
 
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BibletruthSOP said:
Really not impressed with spouted credentials. I remember speaking with a seminary graduate about a certain subject (really important subject but not specifically the subject at hand) and as we spoke he declared his masters paper was on that specific subject. That didn't end our conversation. We spoke for about a half hour and he was visibly physically shaking toward the end...not angry, wild eyed, or anything like that, but visibly physically shaking. I was rather taken aback so changed the conversation and we went about the business we were involved with. I knew he had seen truth in the word we were discussing, but I, at that time, was under the impression folks claiming interest in the bible, would be joyous in seeing truth. But this is often not the case, especially when it comes to "stop sinning".
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So what....that is the third time in over 5 years I have referenced it...and too be frank...you cannot even get salvation right so....what you say carries no weight with me at all
 
BibletruthSOP said:
Really not impressed with spouted credentials. I remember speaking with a seminary graduate about a certain subject (really important subject but not specifically the subject at hand) and as we spoke he declared his masters paper was on that specific subject. That didn't end our conversation. We spoke for about a half hour and he was visibly physically shaking toward the end...not angry, wild eyed, or anything like that, but visibly physically shaking. I was rather taken aback so changed the conversation and we went about the business we were involved with. I knew he had seen truth in the word we were discussing, but I, at that time, was under the impression folks claiming interest in the bible, would be joyous in seeing truth. But this is often not the case, especially when it comes to "stop sinning".
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Well, Mr. B. you made the assertion sir, implying he did not know scripture.
 
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dcontroversal said:
I bet the cup of cold water to a disciple in the name of Jesus does not make his acceptable list of fruits.....
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LOL, it does. But according to your earlier statements, a Christian could not give a cup of cold water to a disciple without a period of grpwth and maturity. REMEMBER?

IT takes a period of growth and maturity for a Christian to bear anything.;.is what you said. In context of bearing fruit. Thanks for contradicting yourself so eloquently.
 
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Macabeus said:
He has me on ignore because he agreed with DC that "it takes a period of growth and maturity for a Christian to bear ANY fruit". I pointed out that was a universal statement that even if it is true in some cases (which I don't think it is), yet there is no scriptural basis to make a universal statement like that as if it applies to everyone. He didn't get it. Couldn't follow a rational response to a statement, and therefore put me on ignore
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Mr. M which fruit are you speaking about there are different fruit in the scripture?
 
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