Why would we be looking to Greek scholars anyway? the Bible is where its at!
Not By Works
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so, having faith is just as important as believing. well, o.k., so, if I believe that faith in Christ is all that is required for salvation, is that not a reinforcing statement? belief in, having faith in , pretty much synonymous right? or does that not pontificate consciously enough?
Thru God beginning to work with us, we either accept His calling or reject it The parable of the Sower illustrates that, We accept it,then God shows us more and we accept that, havent fallen by wayside yet so again God shows us truth and we accept. We see we have to change, repent and be baptized so we are baptized and by the laying on of hands receive the H. S Then the lifetime process of salvation begins!
well, when Jesus was dealing with the women with the blood issue, someone came up to the man with the sick daughter , and said the girl had died. Jesus said to the man. " do not be afraid , only believe "
so. it seems that Jesus thought that believing was a big deal..............
P
Pisteuo
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No He didn't . The Greek doesn't have a word for our English word " believe " . The Greek has a verb pisteuo , faithing towards God , or apisteuo , faithing away from God . The Greek doesn't acknowledge a state of being where one is just believing or in a neutral state .
Your a victim of a mistranslation
Wrong, most of us are conservative evangelical style of Christians. Which means we are DEFINITELY those who believe we are SAVED by Grace alone, and only the few believe their works count towards the Salvation WHICH IS ERROR. Most of us believe that Obedience is produced by our LOVE FOR GOD, and Our for GOD came from GOD's LOVE being Poured into our hearts by the HOLY SPIRIT, when we were Born Again, Rom 5:5. Obedience NEVER HAS BE PART OF SALVATION.
IN FACT I recently found a VERSE that says we were SAVED before time began:
2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
1 Corinthians 2:7 (NIV)
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
Revelation 13:8 (CSBBible)
8 All those who live on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
faith and works can not be separated in true followers. All faith and no works = dead faith, and all works with no faith = legalism.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Even the devils believe in God (v19), but that does not save them. Just believing in God does not save you.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Even the devils believe in God (v19), but that does not save them. Just believing in God does not save you.
Just as I thought. You are confusing justification with ongoing sanctification and the end result is salvation by works.
the word pistis ( greek word for faith) means pretty much the same thing as pisteuo. they are almost interchangeable. so, the point you are trying to make is a moot point..............
The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.
Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith as obedience/works, just as you are doing now. I've had numerous conversations with works-salvationists in the past who make the same arguments that you are making and were also very fond of quoting Vine's about surrender and life inspired by such surrender and could not answer my question either as to where the line in the sand is drawn about having sufficiently surrendered to Christ “enough” and your life inspired by such surrender “measures up?” That is faith + works.
Receiving the Holy Spirit after receiving the laying on of hands is the exception (Acts 8:17; 19:6) not the rule (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). Are you a Mormon? You are confusing justification with ongoing sanctification and are teaching salvation by works.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/have faith/trust in Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!
James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
notice the sprit at work here- no matter what it is, whatever method is used , Hebrew roots, salvation by works, this new mis-translations non-sense, the sprit at work here is trying to undermine the believer's faith and trust in Christ.
does not matter what it is, beware anyone who has anything to say that does not include salvation by trust and faith in Christ alone.
does not matter what it is, beware anyone who has anything to say that does not include salvation by trust and faith in Christ alone.
The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1-19
Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.
The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.
Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?
Immorality is disobedience to God's moral laws. Do you change God's Grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4) thereby receiving God's Grace in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1) by nullifying God's Word, laws, commands, teachings and instructions.(Mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1-19
Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.
The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.
Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?
Immorality is disobedience to God's moral laws. Do you change God's Grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4) thereby receiving God's Grace in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1) by nullifying God's Word, laws, commands, teachings and instructions.(Mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
Isn't the very problem with being deceived is the fact that a deceived person truly believes they are not? Wouldn't a truly deceived person be the one most convinced they are not deceived?
Isn't this why the Christ said so many times "IF" you love Me you will not just hear what I say, but also do what I say? And why John said "by this you shall know".
The Word of God, the Christ of the Bible said we are judged by our "works". Shouldn't we be the first one to know our works? He also explained what He created to help us know.
Is. 58:
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, ( is this the Law of God as many on this forum preach?) and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? (Deception)
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? (Works)