Not By Works

[Magenta]

 

[mailmandan]

Do you believe that weeds grow in the same kinds of soil (heart) where the good seeds were sown? If you do, were you saved the moment you believed despite the presence of weeds or do you leave salvation to the hands of our merciful and loving God come judgment day when He will judge the living and the dead?

Matthew 15:13 - But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted."

Revelation 21:7-8 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The "cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars" is descriptive of those who are not born of God.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 in regards to works of believers at the judgment.
See Revelation 20:13 in regards to works of unbelievers at the judgment.

 

[mailmandan]

“Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself.” Ezekiel 3:20-21

Ezekiel 18:29 - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS."

This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

As James Fawcett Brown points out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous.

You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised

. For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. Hebrews 10:36-39

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

 

[GodsGrace101]

OKAY, you need to learn what JEWS mean when they SAY "I BELIEVE". It is NOT LIKE OUR WORD BELIEVE. It is NOT TALKING ABOUT HEAD KNOWLEDGE, it HAS TO INVOLVE THE WHOLE HEART, or you are Lying about what you claim to BELIEVE. LOOK AS THIS:


James 2:19 (ESV)
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!


There is HEAD KNOWLEDGE, which is only believing with what lies between your ears.

Do you think DEMONS are SAVED ? ? ?

Here is the Story about the DEMONIACS at GADARA.


Mark 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.
7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me."
8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"


Here is More of the STORY, the region or county is Gergesa, and the City was Gadara:


Matthew 8:28-32 (NKJV)
28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.
29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine."
32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water.


Why did Mark focus only the Spokesperson, and Matthew made it clear there were TWO Demoniacs?
You will have to ask them when we get to heaven.


Mark 5:8-13 (NKJV)
8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
9 Then He asked him, "What is your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many."
10 Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country.
11 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains.
12 So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them."
13 And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea.


NOW, you have the DEMONS bowing in a worshipful position to Jesus, and you have them calling HIM "Jesus, You Son of God", which would amount to Believing according the English Language, so according to your THEORY, they have to be true Christians, right? WRONG. There is something More to BELIEVING to a Jew, that goes BEYOND only acknowledging belief in your mind.

This Story comes from ZOLA LEVITT, who was raised an orthodox Jew, and was led to LORD by a Baptist Minister. He used to have TV ministry before he died and went home to the LORD, where he showed Jews that JESUS was the Messiah, and Christians the history of their Jewish heritage.

{ If two Jews walked up to frozen over lake in early winter.
Jew #1, said to Jew #2, "Do you believe the ice is thick enough to walk on?"
And Jew #2 then said, "Yes, I do believe the ice is thick enough to walk on."
Then Jew #2 walked over to the edge of the ice and gently reached out with one foot, gently pressing down on the ice.
Jew #1 WOULD START YELLING, "LIAR! LIAR! If you really believed the ice was thick enough, you would have boldly walked out there with both feet, putting your whole weight on what you professed to believe!" }

That is what the JEW MEANS BY BELIEVING. YOU HAVE TO PUT YOUR WHOLE WAIT ON WHAT YOU PROFESS YOU BELIEVE IN. Therefore, JESUS being a JEW, meant that our WHOLE HEART, our WHOLE WEIGHT had be on HIM, TOTALLY TRUSTING HIM. That is what BIBLICAL BELIEF REALLY IS, that inner personal love Relationship with Jesus Christ, TOTALLY TRUSTING HIM; not just head knowledge. Now maybe you can UNDERSTAND that this Reason, is why this person was NEVER SAVED, because he only had head knowledge:


1 John 2:4 (NKJV)
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


SEE IT NOW, NO LOVING LIFESTYLE CHANGE, means he LIED about intimately KNOWING JESUS CHRIST.

Now read this VERSE with the new found Wisdom of Understanding, you now Have.


John 3:16 (NRSV)
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.


NO ONE who falls away, and did not have the kind of faith that BELIEVES LIKE THAT.

NO ONE who does not produce a harvest, has the kind of faith that BELIEVES like that.

Out of LOVE FOR HIM, we are the ones who have PUT OUR WHOLE TRUST IN JESUS.

So the difference is between Head Knowledge and Heart Knowledge,
Head Knowledge - even the Demons have that kind of knowledge.
Heart Knowledge - only born again Christians have that.

Words are never wasted and some reading along will have learned something from the time you put into this.

You should not, however, presume to know what others know or do not know.
Since you're so clear in what BELIEVE means, I'm surprised that you agree with some on this thread since to believe means to trust and obey and we seem to have a problem with the word obey here.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Thank you, M!! I love it.. so cuteeeeeeeeeee!!!!

 

[GodsGrace101]

You are the one that SAID: "Must Obey" removing it from GRACE and Placing it FULLY under a LAW.

Will Obey, as a result of a CHANGED Nature of our Born Again human spirit, manifesting GOD's LOVE towards HIM.

Yours is a very beautiful thought.
However, when GOD speaks, He does not make requests.
IF we're saved, we MUST obey God.
It could be from love, and it should be from love.

What if He tells us not to do something we want to do?
Do we love Him enough to listen?
So, does this mean we NEVER sin?

We DO sin. So how do YOU explain that?

We MUST obey God---whether or not we do is a different matter.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The pot calling the kettle black here ^^^^^ You know, two Greek words form the word translated hypocrite........the implication is clear

D, Is it darkness or light when one has nothing to say but negative statements?
You say you know about Greek words... Do you know about the love God would like us to spread around?

 

[mailmandan]

Since you're so clear in what BELIEVE means, I'm surprised that you agree with some on this thread since to believe means to trust and obey and we seem to have a problem with the word obey here.

To believe is to have faith in, trust in. Obedience which follows is WORKS. That's the problem with defining believe as trust AND obey. I will give you an example of how the definition you presented leads to teaching salvation through faith AND works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that he does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradicted himself by making this statement to me below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

That statement above is absolutely false. His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) PLUS works.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

Prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and included "obedience/works" into the definition of faith/belief.

 

[GodsGrace101]

while it has implications concerning nations, this bit for example appears to me very clearly talking about specific individual persons:

Romans 9:9-12
For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac; (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

I don't really have lots of time for here...lucky for me I skimmed through till the end and find that your question is not very sincere --- so why ask me anything at all?
101 is the basics. We need to learn the basics before we move on.
What's the basic where God is concerned? Love for our fellow man.
John 13:35

 

[GodsGrace101]

To believe is to have faith in, trust in. Obedience which follows is WORKS. That's the problem with defining believe as trust AND obey. I will give you an example of how the definition you presented leads to teaching salvation through faith AND works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that he does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, contradicted himself by making this statement to me below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

That statement above is absolutely false. His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) PLUS works.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

Prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and included "obedience/works" into the definition of faith/belief.

MMD, I'm going to have to go check out other threads and I don't have time for many, so I'll be leaving here.

As to your friend, we have spoken about this before. I agree that only God can save us even if we never get baptized (although we should since Jesus said so) and never receive communion. However, I do agree with your friend that we're to show charity and mercy and obey His commandments and do the will of the Father (as much as we can). This comes under obeying and, as you might know, I do believe that we are to obey.

So, yes, the thing is this: We are saved by faith. We KEEP our salvation by NOT disobeying God.

As to believe,,,I'm not going to give you any lessons here. But I do wish you'd look this up:
Believe implies obedience. Look up the Greek word for unbelief, it has disobey in it. The word BELIEVE contains in it the idea of obeying.

If we believe, we trust
If we trust we follow
If we follow WE DO (just like Jesus did).

 

[Studyman]

The last line in your post is ignorant.....and I could say the same about you with a little twist....

NOW if you only trusted the God of the bible instead of your man made self saving false religion.

I just don't believe God's Words are a false religion Decon. Had the mainstream preachers of Christ's considered "ALL" of the Word's of the Word which became Flesh, they would have been like Zechariahs and they would have known the Christ when He came.

For the life of me, I can't understand how you think you can "omit" so much scripture like they did, and somehow receive a different judgment.

I expect this is the result of being convinced, as was Eve, that you are already immortal, and that much of God's Word makes you blind and in prison so you must, as did Eve, reject it. I just don't believe what the serpent says.

 

[Studyman]

exactly. notice what Gabriel said was a closed statement. " He shall save His people from their sins "

the Angel did NOT say " He shall teach His people to properly keep the Torah, and if they do, that will save my people from their sins ".

now, the judeaizers wish so bad that was said, but it was not.......

Mat. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one (Jew and Gentile) that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[mailmandan]

As to your friend, we have spoken about this before. I agree that only God can save us even if we never get baptized (although we should since Jesus said so) and never receive communion.

Agreed. For some people, receiving Christ through faith may take place on their death bed with no opportunity to get water baptized, receive communion or accomplish acts of charity, yet they will still be saved through authentic faith in Christ.

However, I do agree with your friend that we're to show charity and mercy and obey His commandments and do the will of the Father (as much as we can). This comes under obeying and, as you might know, I do believe that we are to obey.

I agree that as Christians, we are to show charity and "keep" (Greek word - "tereo" - watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments (1 John 2:3-4) and do the will of the Father. Also, there is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

*AND*

Doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

So, yes, the thing is this: We are saved by faith. We KEEP our salvation by NOT disobeying God.

Yes, we are saved through faith apart from works. So how much disobedience does it take? That sounds like "type 2 works salvation." From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

As to believe,,,I'm not going to give you any lessons here. But I do wish you'd look this up: Believe implies obedience. Look up the Greek word for unbelief, it has disobey in it. The word BELIEVE contains in it the idea of obeying.

That same Roman Catholic made the same argument you are making here and he directed me to John 3:36 in the NASB - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Now in regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, then he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is "apeitheo" which means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

If we believe, we trust

Amen! Have faith in, trust in.

If we trust we follow

If we follow WE DO (just like Jesus did).

To DO is the fruit of believing (works), but not the essence of believing. If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Would your answer go something like this? "Because I did my best to obey and follow you?" OR "because I trusted in you as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation?" Or maybe a "combination of both?"

Now I don't mean to interrogate you, but I am trying to get to the heart of the issue here.

 

[posthuman]

I don't really have lots of time for here...lucky for me I skimmed through till the end and find that your question is not very sincere --- so why ask me anything at all?
101 is the basics. We need to learn the basics before we move on.
What's the basic where God is concerned? Love for our fellow man.
John 13:35

dude there isn't even a question in the post you quoted, so i don't know what you're calling insincere. it's just Romans 9:9-12

 

[Studyman]

dude there isn't even a question in the post you quoted, so i don't know what you're calling insincere. it's just Romans 9:9-12

Dude, she isn't a dude!!!

 

[Studyman]

Agreed. For some people, receiving Christ through faith may take place on their death bed with no opportunity to get water baptized, receive communion or accomplish acts of charity, yet they will still be saved through authentic faith in Christ.


Now I don't mean to interrogate you, but I am trying to get to the heart of the issue here.

Heb. 12:
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. (changed)
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[dcontroversal]

In "B" you say through faith, are you meaning you were given faith as a gift like in 1 Corinthians 12:9 or that you have that faith on your own?

You know brother.....you and I have had good discussions in the past.....you have seen me post many things over the last 5 years almost....you tell me what do I think........seriously.....HAVE you EVER, ONE TIME seen me point at any other than Jesus/God as the source of everything spiritual?????

 

[dcontroversal]

D, Is it darkness or light when one has nothing to say but negative statements?
You say you know about Greek words... Do you know about the love God would like us to spread around?

Yep and LOVE and TRUTH go hand in hand......they are SISTERS......you cannot have ONE without the other and no offence, but his false gospel portrays NEITHER...........nor does a gospel that peddles a salvation that can be lost or must be maintained by man like a car needing the oil changed every xxxx thousand miles.......

 

[dcontroversal]

I just don't believe God's Words are a false religion Decon. Had the mainstream preachers of Christ's considered "ALL" of the Word's of the Word which became Flesh, they would have been like Zechariahs and they would have known the Christ when He came.

For the life of me, I can't understand how you think you can "omit" so much scripture like they did, and somehow receive a different judgment.

I expect this is the result of being convinced, as was Eve, that you are already immortal, and that much of God's Word makes you blind and in prison so you must, as did Eve, reject it. I just don't believe what the serpent says.

I never said God's word man, but rather your total lack of the biblical application of said word is what is false......for example the drivel you post above is neither biblical and or found in scripture........dude.....you have a lot to learn...I suggest you start with biblical salvation before you lift up your eyes in a place that you do not want to go.......!

 

[posthuman]

Dude, she isn't a dude!!!

in the vernacular dude is become generally neuter, dude.

but bring back the pink names, yes please