Not By Works

[loverofjesus27]

I grew up on a farm and for a time had sheep and goats.

i wish i can go back to the old times to know what the hard life was like.

 

[benhur]

Abel did give back his work. works. He did not work to get the lambs mother pregnant. He did not work to give birth to the lamb, He did not work to make th elamb unblemished, the lamb was a gift from God and he gave it back in offering.

Cain did HARD work to till the ground, He did HARD work to plant the seed sand cultivate it, He did hard work keeping the garden for of weeds and he had to also do the hard work of harvesting the food.

Do you think you have a certain phobia for the word 'work or good works'?


Thats an interesting take on Abel. Thank you for that. I am sure he had nothing to do with raising the Lamb he sacrificed to God. BTW, was his sacrifice a good work. Yes, since it was accepted of God.

Will doing good works going to prevent you from having eternal life?

 

[benhur]

If you think Judas was saved and then lost it <---confirms you

a. Cannot read
b. Reject what you read

A devil from the Beginning
A thief holding the bag
The Son of perdition
Have not I chosen you 12 and yet one of you IS (BE VERB) A DEVIL

Take your false, losable salvation some place else pal!

Thank you for calling me pal. I am your brother in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We know that Jesus knew Judas was a devil and would betray him, but what about Judas. I believe at one time Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, and followed him and was ordiained by Jesus to not just be a disciple, but to be his apostle. His special witness to the world that Jesus was the Messiah.

The point is, I believe Judas believed at one point in their relationship, but later turned. It is hard to know why he turned and maybe he was not really saved from the beginning. Is there lots of Christians that are going to find out that they were not really saved too?

 

[benhur]

There is one correct message of salvation and your embellished version is not it!! Let that sink in!

There are tens of Christian versions of the correct message of salvation. Look at this thread. There are 3 or 4 that believe the way I believe, and there are 5 or 6 that believe the way you believe. Which one is right? My whole belief is supported by the bible. Your whole belief is supported by the bible. There are another 20 0r 30 that never say anything that believe something different than both of us. Who is right? I can match you scripture for scripture, so who is right?

 

[benhur]

For one who has dug their heals. To ask someone else if they are going to do the same is prety sad don’t you think?

Thats right, the bible supports both of us. What do we do now?

 

[joefizz]

There are tens of Christian versions of the correct message of salvation. Look at this thread. There are 3 or 4 that believe the way I believe, and there are 5 or 6 that believe the way you believe. Which one is right? My whole belief is supported by the bible. Your whole belief is supported by the bible. There are another 20 0r 30 that never say anything that believe something different than both of us. Who is right? I can match you scripture for scripture, so who is right?

God is......

 

[benhur]

He can't.
Judas is dead

Seriously though.
Do you think Judas would have been baptised by John the Baptist?
If so then was he not saved, after all John said

Matthew 3:2
2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

What was the repentance that John talked about and why one should be baptised?

Was it to save them?
How could it save them because Jesus had not yet started his ministry.
If that's the case what saved them?


John 6:28-35


28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Did Judas truly believe that the kingdom at hand was Jesus?
Did he place his faith in Jesus?

John could have baptized Judas, but I really believe that before Jesus ordained the 12 apostles, they ALL followed Jesus into water baptism. If it was not recorded, then it was not recorded. That Jesus went and did water baptism, I cannot believe his apostles would not have done the same. Even Judas.

 

[preston39]

The theological issue of the importance of baptism comes from the great commission.

Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission)
16 Now the elevendisciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).

We are commanded to be baptized. Therefore what is the consequences of not getting baptized before you die? This is argued by different denominations. All agree that baptism is required but some say the intent is fine if the person dies before the scheduled event. Others will perform the baptism immediately after the person converts because they believe that the person might not be saved without it.

Then there is the other can of worms. The mode of baptism. There are three modes (or methods) of water baptism used in Christian churches today: immersion (in which the person is completely submerged), affusion (that is, pouring), and aspersion (sprinkling). There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly states the mode. The argument is an ongoing bone of contention between denominations. Some go to the supposed root word for baptism. One is immersing a cloth to be dyed and another is washing the feet at that time. Never ending argument with people dug in on all 3 types.

Let the arguments begin keeping in mind to respect others views that disagree with yours.

E...,

I for one, cares not what a denomination wants unless it is in sync with G-d's word.

 

[benhur]

What I find interesting is the following, and yes I've asked myself the question.

Where in the NT does it say that the disciples were baptised after Jesus rose again?
I would think if it was important enough in terms of baptism saving us then I'm sure it would have been written.
Are you aware of any of the disciples being rebaptised?

Peter in Acts 2, told all new believers what they should do to be members of the church. They should repent (he did not have to say believe, because he knew they already did) and be baptized for the remission of sins and they should be given the gift of the HS.

This is the model that should have been installed in the church at the beginning, and probably was. So if this is the model, I cannot believe that he wasn't baptized too, and all the rest of the apostles. It may not be recorded, but I am sure they followed their master and were water baptized.

The last words of Jesus to the apostles were to preach and baptize, so it would be unreasonable to think that Peter did not do what he preached.

 

[VCO]

i wish i can go back to the old times to know what the hard life was like.

Oh my, I cannot believe you really want that?

Get up at the crack of Day Light, get on the tractor, to Plow the fields for an hour. THEN you milk the Cows by HAND, because we did not have milking machines, then feed and water the pigs, then make sure their was enough hay for the cattle, then feed and water the Chickens, and gather the eggs. Then you get to go clean up, and put on school clothes, and FINALLY Breakfast. Then you get to walk to school over two miles. AND WHEN YOU GET HOME FROM SCHOOL, YOU GET TO START THE ROUTINE ALL OVER AGAIN.

Carry Drinking Water in from the hand pump ways one of my chores too. What do you mean, indoor plumbing? Remember, we did not have that either, so if you had to go in the middle of the night, especially in Winter, you had to go to the outhouse and sit on those freezing cold BOARDS, and Toilet Paper was a luxury we could not afford, so you had to use a few pages out of the OLD Sears and Roebuck Catalog. OH, the good old days, were not so good after all.

And Meat was a Luxury too. So we had to supplement wild game to eat that we Hunted, like Snapping Turtles (now it makes me hungry), Frog Legs (YUM!), Rabbit Fricassee (oh my, was it delicious), Pigeons, Doves, Pheasants, Ducks, Squirrels, Wild Mushrooms, etc.


Now do you wish YOU could go back to the Old Times?

 

[joefizz]

Oh my, I cannot believe you really want that?

Get up at the crack of Day Light, get on the tractor, to Plow the fields for an hour. THEN you milk the Cows by HAND, because we did not have milking machines, then feed and water the pigs, then make sure their was enough hay for the cattle, then feed and water the Chickens, and gather the eggs. Then you get to go clean up, and put on school clothes, and FINALLY Breakfast. Then you get to walk to school over two miles. AND WHEN YOU GET HOME FROM SCHOOL, YOU GET TO START THE ROUTINE ALL OVER AGAIN.

Carry Drinking Water in from the hand pump ways one of my chores too. What do you mean, indoor plumbing? Remember, we did not have that either, so if you had to go in the middle of the night, especially in Winter, you had to go to the outhouse and sit on those freezing cold BOARDS, and Toilet Paper was a luxury we could not afford, so you had to use a few pages out of the OLD Sears and Roebuck Catalog. OH, the good old days, were not so good after all.

And Meat was a Luxury too. So we had to supplement wild game to eat that we Hunted, like Snapping Turtles (now it makes me hungry), Frog Legs (YUM!), Rabbit Fricassee (oh my, was it delicious), Pigeons, Doves, Pheasants, Ducks, Squirrels, Wild Mushrooms, etc.


Now do you wish YOU could go back to the Old Times?

(waits for answer)

 

[loverofjesus27]

Oh my, I cannot believe you really want that?

Get up at the crack of Day Light, get on the tractor, to Plow the fields for an hour. THEN you milk the Cows by HAND, because we did not have milking machines, then feed and water the pigs, then make sure their was enough hay for the cattle, then feed and water the Chickens, and gather the eggs. Then you get to go clean up, and put on school clothes, and FINALLY Breakfast. Then you get to walk to school over two miles. AND WHEN YOU GET HOME FROM SCHOOL, YOU GET TO START THE ROUTINE ALL OVER AGAIN.

Carry Drinking Water in from the hand pump ways one of my chores too. What do you mean, indoor plumbing? Remember, we did not have that either, so if you had to go in the middle of the night, especially in Winter, you had to go to the outhouse and sit on those freezing cold BOARDS, and Toilet Paper was a luxury we could not afford, so you had to use a few pages out of the OLD Sears and Roebuck Catalog. OH, the good old days, were not so good after all.

And Meat was a Luxury too. So we had to supplement wild game to eat that we Hunted, like Snapping Turtles (now it makes me hungry), Frog Legs (YUM!), Rabbit Fricassee (oh my, was it delicious), Pigeons, Doves, Pheasants, Ducks, Squirrels, Wild Mushrooms, etc.


Now do you wish YOU could go back to the Old Times?

ok just by giving me a lot to read you are giving me the hard life already. Lol.

 

[dcontroversal]

It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered a sacrifice. Abel's faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous (Hebrews 11:4). Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12) so Abel offered his sacrifice by or "out of" faith and Cain did not.

Amen and Abel offered BLOOD being fully aware of the first promise of a redeemer found in Genesis 3:15.......

 

[VCO]

(waits for answer)

Yes, I really did grow up the first few years on a farm in Nebraska that had no running water. I remember the day that my Dad and my Uncle put the water pipes under the house. Yeah, I had first hand experiences in running a Cream Seperator, Corn Sheller, Pot Belly Stoves, falling asleep on the tractor plowing the field with Dad having to jump on the tractor to wake me up for plowing an S in the field. Listening to Boxing, Gun Smoke, Hopalong Cassidy, Jack Benny, Abbott and Costello, etc.

Separated the Cream from the Milk.

Shelled the corn one ear at a time, to feed the pigs.

We used these to burn everything from Corn Cobs to Coal.
Mom would yell at me when I came in from chores in the winter,
because I would sit in a chair, and put my cold feet in my shoes,
on the red hot stove to warm my feet up. She could smell the
burning shoe leather from the kitchen.

YEP, I listened on a radio like this to shows like Gun Smoke, and Mat and Chester were in it.

 

[dcontroversal]

They also demanded the people go to church, Follow his commands, Love other people etc etc etc. Yet none of them are required.

I am not against water Baptism, I am all for it. I am against the doctrine that makes it part of the way to eternal life.

The simple truth.....

grace through faith = eternal salvation <---immersion is the public testimony and picture of the death, burial and resurrection of the New Man in Christ.....a picture and identifier....nothing more, nothing less!

 

[dcontroversal]

How insecure it must feel to believe one can undo what the Creator has done. How busy one must stay in order to maintain their salvation. Where is their peace? Where is their joy?

Amen.......there is no hope in a works based salvation nor any truth to a losable salvation........both are false and contrary to the truth...

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you for calling me pal. I am your brother in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We know that Jesus knew Judas was a devil and would betray him, but what about Judas. I believe at one time Judas believed that Jesus was the Messiah, and followed him and was ordiained by Jesus to not just be a disciple, but to be his apostle. His special witness to the world that Jesus was the Messiah.

The point is, I believe Judas believed at one point in their relationship, but later turned. It is hard to know why he turned and maybe he was not really saved from the beginning. Is there lots of Christians that are going to find out that they were not really saved too?

There is no proof of your assumption....and plenty to prove Judas was never saved....regardless of how you twist it.....

 

[dcontroversal]

There are tens of Christian versions of the correct message of salvation. Look at this thread. There are 3 or 4 that believe the way I believe, and there are 5 or 6 that believe the way you believe. Which one is right? My whole belief is supported by the bible. Your whole belief is supported by the bible. There are another 20 0r 30 that never say anything that believe something different than both of us. Who is right? I can match you scripture for scripture, so who is right?

A. You can match nothing in context that equates to a losable salvation.

B. Faith plus anything is condemend by both Jesus and Paul

C. There is one correct message of salvation.....your embellished version is not it!

 

[mailmandan]

Peter in Acts 2, told all new believers what they should do to be members of the church. They should repent (he did not have to say believe, because he knew they already did) and be baptized for the remission of sins and they should be given the gift of the HS.

In Acts 2:37, their "belief" at this point was merely "mental assent" belief that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. *That is not saving belief yet. *They still lacked trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation and that's why they still needed to repent "change their mind" and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ/place their faith in Christ alone for salvation. Repent actually "precedes" saving belief/faith.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Chaos is their Peace,
Pride is their Joy,Confusion is their help meet,Affliction of others is their Conviction.

I would say pride is their peace. Pride in their accomplishments, and how great they are that They have earned their right to eternal life. And not just taken a handout (ie greasy grace or what they term hypergrace)