Not By Works

[Budman]

Everybody in the church knows this.

The problem is some will turn right around and say you do not have to obey to be saved when Christ comes back. They reject Jesus' teaching that says the person who is lawless does not know Him and will be rejected when He comes. It's a horrible contradiction of beliefs.

Prepared in advance to do good works, but if you don't do them all is good because salvation is not by works and Jesus still knows you anyway despite having no works. That is what is being taught in the church today.

Do you even know the gospel, sir?

If one cannot earn salvation by works, what is your basis for believing one can/must retain salvation by works?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Walk in these and you will not be guilty of wrong doing before God-Galatians 5:22-23.

Thank you, that's constructive. I will re-read Galatians 5 again.

I'm not discrediting him. I'm pointing out to Calvinists/semi-Calvinists that THEY are discrediting the one who's doctrine of eternal security they say they believe.

They defend people who are living in their old unchanged lives as being saved while saying they believe Calvin's doctrine of eternal security which says people who live in their old ways, or returns to them, was never really saved to begin with. It's a contradiction of beliefs.

Classical Calvinism is being replaced by the new eternal security doctrine of 'what you do does not matter toward if you'll be considered a believer or an unbeliever when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works, the only thing that counts is that you believe'. That's not what the Bible says. And neither does Calvin's doctrine of eternal security which so many claim to believe.

Calvin blah blah blah!

What is the point in going on about that?

Doesn't The Bible make it clear in [I think] Romans Chapters 6 & 7 that we have NO LICENCE TO SIN?
How many people are actually arguing against that?
Are the people posting here stating that they have a right to go on sinning on purpose?

I don't see that. Obviously THAT would be wrong & unacceptable. People here seem to want to do good works don't they?
It's just that they know it's not the works that save them.

 

[Budman]

The OT showed us we could never do enough works, shed enough animal sacrifices, stay true to enough laws. Thus, our free gift from God, Jesus Christ Our Lord.

I'll amen that all day long!

 

[Ralph-]

Exactly, then he died both arms and legs nailed to a cross, unable to do any works to obtain his salvation.

He endured to the end.
A short way to the end for him, but a terrible one. He resisted sin and endured and overcame. That is what is required of saved people, or else they are not saved.

But you are being taught that if have to endure to the end that's you trying to earn your salvation, not knowing that enduring to the end is the SIGN of your faith in Christ in salvation.

It is being taught in the new eternal security doctrine that your sin shows you are not trying to save yourself, and so you are saved because of that. And that if you have to be obedient to be saved that is you trying to save yourself. So your disobedience shows you are not trying to earn your salvation and so you are indeed saved.

This teaching ignores the words of Jesus that say the one who is disobedient is the one who will be rejected when he comes back, not just the ones who thought their works of ministerial service were going to make it good with Jesus-Matthew 7.

You yourself said you are of the doctrinal persuasion that, whether you realize it or not, teaches this, but which we can not discuss. You probably don't know that this doctrine teaches all this. Of course they deny that they teach this. Just as many of you are doing in this thread.

 

[Budman]

He endured to the end.
A short way to the end for him, but a terrible one. He resisted sin and endured and overcame. That is what is required of saved people, or else they are not saved.

But you are being taught that if have to endure to the end that's you trying to earn your salvation, not knowing that enduring to the end is the SIGN of your faith in Christ in salvation.

It is being taught in the new eternal security doctrine that your sin shows you are not trying to save yourself, and so you are saved because of that. And that if you have to be obedient to be saved that is you trying to save yourself. So your disobedience shows you are not trying to earn your salvation and so you are indeed saved.

This teaching ignores the words of Jesus that say the one who is disobedient is the one who will be rejected when he comes back, not just the ones who thought their works of ministerial service were going to make it good with Jesus.

You yourself said you are of the doctrinal persuasion that teaches this, but which we can not discuss. You probably don't know that this doctrine teaches all this. Of course they deny that they teach this. Just as many of you are doing in this thread.

How many sins a day, would you say, you commit?

How many good works a day are required to "prove" oneself?

 

[Ralph-]

If one cannot earn salvation by works, what is your basis for believing one can/must retain salvation by works?

I did not say works retain salvation. I'm saying what the Bible says, they are the SIGN of salvation. Without which you will not be saved, because not having them shows you are not saved. That makes works required to be saved when Jesus comes back. They are what accompanies true salvation-Hebrews 6:9-10.

People will say they believe this but then they will say in another post you do not need to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. I'm uncovering this double mindedness in the church today. and how it's being used to excuse living in sin.

 

[Budman]

I did not say works retain salvation. I'm saying what the Bible says, they are the SIGN of salvation. Without which you will not be saved, because not having them shows you are not saved.

How many works are required to prove one's salvation?

 

[Ralph-]

How many works are required to prove one's salvation?

It's not a numeical number. It's a pattern of growth. An increasing measure of the qualities of the Spirit in a person-2 Peter 5-11 (note vs. 8). That is what shows you are saved and will not go in the furnace when Jesus comes back. 'Living in' sin is hardly a pattern of growth in a saving relationship with Christ. But many defend it as being saved nonetheless.

 

[UnderGrace]

That question has been asked many times.....still waiting for the magic number
Maybe you will get an answer...I will be waiting

 

[Ralph-]

That question has been asked many times.....still waiting for the magic number
Maybe you will get an answer...I will be waiting

Still waiting for you to see what the Bible says that it is not a magic number but a pattern of growth upwards. I post it over and over and yet you people still ask for your magical number.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Happy New Year Ralphy!

 

[MattforJesus]

Do not say you cannot abstain from sin,for by the Spirit you can,and sin does not affect your relationship with God,for it does and there is no excuse because you have the power to abstain from sin,if you hate sin,and do not want sin,and God blesses with money,and material things for your wants,because He does not,having food and clothing be content.

And all this is biblical.

Charity is greater than faith,and faith works through love,and love does not think an evil thought,does not sin,and only goes by their needs,and helps the poor and needy if possible.

This is what seals the saints that they depart from iniquity,and Paul said awake to righteousness,and sin not,but some have not the knowledge of God,and he speaks that to their shame.

Have the attitude you can abstain from sin because the Spirit is given,and hate sin,and do not want sin,and sin does affect your relationship with God,and to go by your needs,and stop enjoying money and material things for your lusts.

For your position will be better,and pleasing to God,and it will cut down on much hypocrisy of people claiming to be with Christ,and you will understand the Bible better.

2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed.

Because the ministry is being blamed because of people's hypocrisy that think they are alright with God while holding unto sin,and enjoying money and material things above their needs while there is people that need food and clothing.

And do we see that a lot among them.

 

[Budman]

It's not a numeical number. It's a pattern of growth. An increasing measure of the qualities of the Spirit in a person-2 Peter 5-11 (note vs. 8). That is what shows you are saved and will not go in the furnace when Jesus comes back. 'Living in' sin is hardly a pattern of growth in a saving relationship with Christ. But many defend it as being saved nonetheless.

So, God judges by a sliding scale?

And just how many sins does one have to commit a day to be "living" in them? 5? 10? 20?

You do realize our works are simply meant to justify us in the sight of men, they do not justify us in the sight of God because Jesus satisfied all of the requirements to save us, and to keep us saved. That's why He gets all the glory - not us.

 

[Ralph-]

How many sins a day, would you say, you commit?

How many good works a day are required to "prove" oneself?

As you now see I answered this right from the Bible.

The problem is Christians think they can live in their old lives and they are saved nonetheless because salvation is not by works. They don't seem to realize, or ignore, the fact that the Bible says that the person who is doing that is not saved. Need references, or do you already know them?

 

[Budman]

As you now see I answered this right from the Bible.

The problem is Christians think they can live in their old lives and they are saved nonetheless because salvation is not by works. They don't seem to realize, or ignore, the fact that the Bible says that the person who is doing that is not saved. Need references, or do you already know them?

Do you still sin?

 

[Ralph-]

So, God judges by a sliding scale?

And just how many sins does one have to commit a day to be "living" in them? 5? 10? 20?

You do realize our works are simply meant to justify us in the sight of men, they do not justify us in the sight of God because Jesus satisfied all of the requirements to save us, and to keep us saved. That's why He gets all the glory - not us.

Do you click into porn without a thought and have just accepted it as the sin the Christian is doomed to live in? If so, you may well be showing you aren't even born again to begin with.

Prove to yourself that you are born again and have the Spirit of God in you.....turn off the porn and resist it in the power of the Spirit. If you can't do that then you are not born again. Examine yourself this way. They if you see that you do not know Christ at all in salvation, your slavery to sin being the evidence of that, you can stop playing lip service games and get saved.

Plug any other sin in place of 'porn' in the above and you'll understand the point.

 

[Budman]

Do you click into porn without a thought and have just accepted it as the sin the Christian is doomed to live in? If so, you may well be showing you aren't even born again to begin with. Prove to yourself that you are.....turn off the porn and resist it in the powe of the Spirit. If you can't do that then you are not born again. Examine yourself this way. They if you see that you do not know Christ at all in salvation, your slavery to sin being the evidence of that, you can stop playing lip service games and get saved.

Plug any other sin in place of 'porn' in the above and you'll understand the point.

You're avoiding the question.

Do you still sin?

 

[Ralph-]

Happy New Year Ralphy!

It's good to see you agree then that works are required to be saved when Jesus comes back, or else you show that you are not born again. That's what Calvin teaches. But which gets contradicted by the same people who then insist you do not have to have works when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works.

 

[Ralph-]

Do you still sin?

Yes, but I'm not living in it in slavery as a way of life-Galatians 5:21, 1 John 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5, 1 John 3:6-10. Are you? If you are, you are not born again and you are not going to inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back.

So how bout it? Are you living the life in the passages above? If you are and you think grace makes it so you'll still be saved anyway you are deceived. The evidence of grace is that you are NOT living like that. Grace was given to deliver us from sin, not make is so we can live in it and still be saved.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Salvation isn't by works. It's by grace through our faith... Good works naturally follow salvation BUT are worthless if done for the wrong reasons..

It's good to see you agree then that works are required to be saved when Jesus comes back, or else you show that you are not born again. That's what Calvin teaches. But which gets contradicted by the same people who then insist you do not have to have works when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works.