S
Sully
Guest
hmm not gonar happen i am the guard of my house.. youll need an army to take my keyboard
Stranger things have happened to advertisers of false doctrine.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Stranger things have happened to advertisers of false doctrine.
By his stated doctrine lost.........and he keeps going on and on and on about Southern Baptists......of the which I am not and have stated like at least twice I disagree with probably 90-95% of what they hold to.....mental I guess!
A childlike faith......that is all that is required....like the size of a mustard seed....
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
so then you have works before faith......it is suppose to be the other way around......
Ask yourself, why are you breaking one of God's most precious rules. Only a Man and a Woman???
Confession is not a work that merits our salvation after we believe the gospel and are saved.
Yet it's not something we do AFTER we have been saved through faith in order to become saved. That is when it would become a work for salvation.
I agree there is more than one baptism. Water baptism and Spirit baptism are two distinct baptisms.
Yet someone who believes that we must accomplish a check list of works after we place our faith in Christ for salvation would not agree with verses to teach saved through faith.
Repenting and confessing that we are sinners in need of a Savior precedes salvation through faith. Multiple acts of obedience which follow having been saved through faith include love for one another and forgiving one another. Love and forgiveness is the mark of a genuine Christian. We must not confuse descriptive passages of Scripture with prescriptive passages of Scripture.
Continuously, refusing to forgive others demonstrates what about someone's claim of faith?
Verses that teach salvation is through faith negate and make void the assumption that other verses teach we must accomplish a list of works "afterwards" in order to become saved. Repentance and confession of sin precedes saving faith in Christ.
You are not always clear in your explanations and sometimes it even appears that you are playing word games.
That is the key word in James 2:14. "Says" or "claims" to have faith but has no works. Where is the evidence? We show our faith by our works and if someone merely claims to have faith but has no works at all to back up their claim, then it demonstrates that person has an empty profession of faith.
When you say faith + works it comes across as both faith and works are what save us. We are saved by faith at it's origin and not at some time later, after we accomplish a list of works.
It's not always easy to tell what you are teaching because your explanations are all over the place.
Yet it's authentic faith in Jesus that saves and not the works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
Faith ONLY according to James = empty profession of faith, not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. We are in agreement on this matter as long as you believe that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24).
In other posts you have disagreed with me when discussing these issues but now you are saying you agree with me here. Don't mind me while I scratch my head... lol
Is it just me brother or is having a Biblical discussion on doctrine with DiscipleDave a very complicated matter? In one post he may disagree with you on a particular topic, then in a different post discussing the same topic that he previously disagreed with you on, he suddenly agrees with you.
W
wsblind
Guest
I know why Dan. Because James isn't talking about unsaved people. James is talking about saved people who are doing NO works.
James is basically saying........How can you Glorify the Lord if you are not working for the Lord? He isn't saying if we have no works we are not really saved.
We can have no works and be saved. It is just a dead faith that will not Glorify the Lord. But He gets His Glory for saving that worthless/useless believer.
The problem with that conclusion is that James said this hypothetical person says or claims to have faith but has no works...can that faith save him. Does that sound like saved to you?
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wsblind
Guest
Just a quick question then.
It is faith+works= salvation then? If we fail to have works then works is the factor that sends us to The LoF?
I think many miss the fact that believers produce two types of works....
a. Gold, silver and precious stones
b. Wood, hay and stubble
One obviously is spiritual, godly and edifies Christ while showing the faith that saves
The other is worldly, lacks edification of Jesus and does not show the faith that saves
The bible has examples of both from genuine believers......
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wsblind
Guest
And I believe that is what James is pointing out.
Can that faith save him? Is a temporal saving,situational saving. If we don't have doctrine in our soul or have grown in His Grace and knowledge after Eternal salvation , then our faith can't save us from coming in from the rain in our daily lives.
The whole key, denied and rejected by those who push a works based pseudo salvation are the words "SHOW ME YOUR FAITH"
JAMES is clearly speaking to a man being able to see your saving faith by the works or fruit that you produce......the flip side is Paul's version which is clearly showing that before GOD a man is justified by faith...
There is no contradiction as the two together give evidence to the complete story....
FAITH alone saves and justifies before GOD....the same faith that saves and justifies one before GOD (which is invisible) can be seen BY MEN based upon our actions, deeds and works.......!
BUT make no mistake....the works do not save, keep save and or facilitate salvation, but rather are a result of the salvation one already possesses....!
It's not faith + works = salvation. We show our faith by our works, but we are not saved by works. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. Believers do not accomplish good works in order to become saved, but because they have been saved through faith in Christ.
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wsblind
Guest
And only a saved person can do this. So James is not talking about unbelievers or questioning salvation.
W
wsblind
Guest
That is where Discipledave is going to get ya. And is where it seems to him you are agreeing.
All Genuine believers SHOULD be fruitful. Many are not.
Faith first- yes! When we forget the fact it says faith without works is dead, however, we call out God to be a liar if we use Scripture to try and reallocate God's Truth.. The thing is we have two subjects here:
Redemption - What has God redeemed? Everything that Sin and Satan have touched and blighted, God has redeemed, thru Christ on a Cross; Redemption, then, is complete. We are not working FOR the redemption of the world, we are working ON the redemption, which is a very different thing.
The second subject ; Salvation - I see many taking Salvation much too cheaply. Jesus Christ does not add one burden to the lives of men; He imparts the power to live up to what we know we ought; that is the meaning of His Salvation. But that is as real a conclusion as it gets, because it is Jesus who backs it up! The separation from the slavery of Sin and the world system, to the opportunity in Christ to live a pure and properly-aligned relationship with God, thru Jesus Christ has been availed to us thru Jesus, and, I get it, many are still learning that Salvation is God's grace to sinful men, and it takes a lifetime to say the word properly. The next thing we have to learn by contact with Jesus Christ is this, that if the whole human race - everybody, good, bad, and indifferent - is lost, we must have the boundless confidence of Jesus Christ Himself about us; that is, we must know that He can save (finishing His Workmanship in us) anybody and everybody.
God doesn't make us Holy, any more than He created Adam Holy. He created Adam innocent, without self-consciousness (as we understand the word) before God; the one thing Adam was conscious of was God and only of himself in relation to the Being Whose commands he was to fulfill; the main trend of his Spirit was toward God. Adam was intended by God to take part in his own development by a series of moral choices whereby he would transform innocence into holiness. Adam failed to do this, Jesus Christ came on the same platform as Adam and did not fail. The natural life is neither good nor bad, moral nor immoral; it is the principle within (which Spirit owns our soul now) that makes it good or bad, moral or immoral.
"There Jesus grew up, maturing in physical strength and increasing in wisdom, and the grace of God rested on Him." Luke 2:40.
The innocence of Jesus was not the innocence of a babe born into our order of things, it was the innocence of Adam as God created him, the innocence of an untried possibility of holiness. Innocence is never safe, it is simply full of possibility. The holiness of God is absolute, not progressive; that is, it knows no development by antagonism. Man's holiness must be progressive. The holiness of Jesus developed thru antagonism because He revealed what a Holy man should be.
God, thru Jesus on a Cross dealt with Sin, and with it our contract to him thru the sins of Adam. But God has given us the 'realness' of holiness, in a transformed life, in Christ Jesus that produces His fruit in us, to conquer sins in living in righteousness by faith, being abandoned to God, thru obedience to God's ways over our own, which will always result in good works because Jesus wills it in us! The fruit of a sanctified life, is good works. That's different than good works bear the Righteousness of man.
"God, give us all wisdom, (Understanding this will only be found thru the Holy Spirit) which translates to understanding Your truths over our own, empower us to fulfill Your good works to show Your glory and serve Your purposes and intentions. AMEN!"
Redemption - What has God redeemed? Everything that Sin and Satan have touched and blighted, God has redeemed, thru Christ on a Cross; Redemption, then, is complete. We are not working FOR the redemption of the world, we are working ON the redemption, which is a very different thing.
The second subject ; Salvation - I see many taking Salvation much too cheaply. Jesus Christ does not add one burden to the lives of men; He imparts the power to live up to what we know we ought; that is the meaning of His Salvation. But that is as real a conclusion as it gets, because it is Jesus who backs it up! The separation from the slavery of Sin and the world system, to the opportunity in Christ to live a pure and properly-aligned relationship with God, thru Jesus Christ has been availed to us thru Jesus, and, I get it, many are still learning that Salvation is God's grace to sinful men, and it takes a lifetime to say the word properly. The next thing we have to learn by contact with Jesus Christ is this, that if the whole human race - everybody, good, bad, and indifferent - is lost, we must have the boundless confidence of Jesus Christ Himself about us; that is, we must know that He can save (finishing His Workmanship in us) anybody and everybody.
God doesn't make us Holy, any more than He created Adam Holy. He created Adam innocent, without self-consciousness (as we understand the word) before God; the one thing Adam was conscious of was God and only of himself in relation to the Being Whose commands he was to fulfill; the main trend of his Spirit was toward God. Adam was intended by God to take part in his own development by a series of moral choices whereby he would transform innocence into holiness. Adam failed to do this, Jesus Christ came on the same platform as Adam and did not fail. The natural life is neither good nor bad, moral nor immoral; it is the principle within (which Spirit owns our soul now) that makes it good or bad, moral or immoral.
"There Jesus grew up, maturing in physical strength and increasing in wisdom, and the grace of God rested on Him." Luke 2:40.
The innocence of Jesus was not the innocence of a babe born into our order of things, it was the innocence of Adam as God created him, the innocence of an untried possibility of holiness. Innocence is never safe, it is simply full of possibility. The holiness of God is absolute, not progressive; that is, it knows no development by antagonism. Man's holiness must be progressive. The holiness of Jesus developed thru antagonism because He revealed what a Holy man should be.
God, thru Jesus on a Cross dealt with Sin, and with it our contract to him thru the sins of Adam. But God has given us the 'realness' of holiness, in a transformed life, in Christ Jesus that produces His fruit in us, to conquer sins in living in righteousness by faith, being abandoned to God, thru obedience to God's ways over our own, which will always result in good works because Jesus wills it in us! The fruit of a sanctified life, is good works. That's different than good works bear the Righteousness of man.
"God, give us all wisdom, (Understanding this will only be found thru the Holy Spirit) which translates to understanding Your truths over our own, empower us to fulfill Your good works to show Your glory and serve Your purposes and intentions. AMEN!"