Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

Can anyone tell me the number of preachers post? I want to rep and like it, but can't find it for some reason.

 

[UnderGrace]

Really, my husband spoke Greek, studied Greek and the Perfect Tense is exactly as stated,

But then that does work with your theology so that is why you cannot accept it.

This the understanding of Koine Greek and Perfect Tense that cannot be denied.


Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence.

Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17


Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

Good luck with the Greek PHart.
I know a theologian who knows Koinè Greek and reads the bible in Koinè Greek and he CONFIRMED everything you've posted above for UG.

It's TOO DIFFICULT for them to accept.
Once you stray from the Word of God, you must change and twist everything to conform to the incorrect belief.

 

[FranC]

You are comparing refrigerated food to the seal of God? That is His stamp of approval and no one can take that away. We have the promises that state salvation is from beginning to the end...or the day of the Lord.

WRONG.
Once again.

How many things do you get wrong?
Do you not study the Word of God?
Do you only pick and choose the tiny little parts of it that agree with what you THINK is doctrine?

I could just see you teaching some kids, like I did for years.

Telling them that they are to receive Christ as Savior (but not as Lord, maybe not in so many words).
AND then they'll BE SAVED FOR LIFE,,,no matter what.

Oh. You say... But you'll explain how they also have to be "good".
Oh my!

 

[stonesoffire]

ou must spread some Reputation around before giving it to UnderGrace again.

awesome! I am learning so much from you guys who are versed in theology.

 

[gb9]

Really, my husband spoke Greek, studied Greek and the Perfect Tense is exactly as stated,

But then that does work with your theology so that is why you cannot accept it.

This the understanding of Koine Greek and Perfect Tense that cannot be denied.


Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence.

Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17


Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

and this is why they use the practice of reductionism, which I explained a few posts ago. they throw out anything that does not fit their agendas.

 

[stonesoffire]

It's easy to say someone is wrong. A bit more difficult to say why. That is why I would like to rep preachers post. He says it so much better than I.

And he and I have disagreement too. But, I have the greatest respect for his teaching on this subject.

 

[PHart]

Since you mention Fran, I can say she has stated we are kept by works many, many times...

But not in the sense of EARNING salvation. I know this is hard for you to grasp because of the church we both are a part of.

Works will save you on the day of wrath ONLY in the sense that they are the evidence that Christ will use to confirm your love and faith in him. That's all. She knows this! You and others simply do not have the capacity to understand this truth because it has been utterly suppressed by the church. Some people will have to pay for doing that in the church. Others are simply the victims of this wicked suppression of the truth.

Christ does not need to use works as evidence of our faith, that just makes no sense.

Right, he doesn't need to use it.....BUT HE WILL. And I suspect he will for the main reason of shutting up evil people and spirits who will call him unjust if he condemns/ or acquits without evidence. So let's stop playing games and rationalizing disobedience because God doesn't need our obedience to prove what's in our hearts. The simple fact is HE WILL USE IT.

He knows our faith, we are justified by our faith, not our works.

True, but does this make it so we are to just ignore that God also said the person who is not characterized by works does not know God?

How could He justify us (a one time event) if He was not aware of our faith to justify us.....He does not look to our works to justify us!!!!

Right, but He also said the person who has this justification apart from works also has works to prove he is justified. But the church swears that it doesn't have to be that way.

Our works are only evidence of our faith to the world, not God, so that others my come to a saving faith

It's evidence to YOU, so YOU can know that you have indeed the calling and election of God. He warns us about this so that we won't get to the Judgment having been deceived by the teaching of demons that says a cold, dead, worksless 'faith' is the faith that justifies too.

This dead faith you people defend as being able to save on the Day of Judgment is not the faith that justifies. The faith that justifies works. All the saints of old testify to this. The 'faith' that does not obey is the faith that did not, and can not justify you. If you can not be characterized by living for God you have a faith that did not justify you. Your lack of obedience proves that. But you claim you do have the faith that justifies? PROVE IT! That's what the Bible commands us to do. And that means shutting off Game of Thrones, people.

 

[FranC]

Amen...the scriptures are clear.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple but it was not cheap not should we cheapen it by calling it greasy grace, easy believism ...etc - it cost our Lord's life and blood to obtain an eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is He like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

Another cut and paste.
Great.

Please explain 2 peter 2:20-22

Oh wait.
I know...
escaped does not mean escaped.
defilement does not mean defilement.
entangled does not mean entangled.
overcome does not mean overcome.
known does not mean known.


Yes. In order to agree with YOU many parts of the bible have to be changed.
Maybe we could go to the Greek and mislead some people?

Or we could stick to the English which was translated by GREEK SCHOLARS and actually BELIEVE what Peter is saying.
Poor Peter, he spent so many years with our LORD, and some have a difficult time believing what HE TEACHES US
under the inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT, which is GOD.

Talk about grieving the Holy Spirit...

 

[oldethennew]

1COR.9:24-25-26-27.
Know you not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?
So run, that you may obtain.

And every man that strives for the mastery is temperate in all things.
Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible crown;
but we an incorruptible.

I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be a 'castaway'.

COL. 1:19-20-21-22-23-24
For it pleased The Father that in Him should all fullness dwell;

And having made peace through The Blood of His Cross, by Him to reconcile
all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth or things in heaven.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works,
yet now has He reconciled

In the Body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable
in His sight:

IF you 'continue' in the Faith' grounded and settled, and be 'not moved away' from the
Hope of the Gospel, which you have heard and which was preached to every creature which
is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[AllenW]

Really, my husband spoke Greek, studied Greek and the Perfect Tense is exactly as stated,

But then that does work with your theology so that is why you cannot accept it.

This the understanding of Koine Greek and Perfect Tense that cannot be denied.


Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence.

Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17


Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

If you think God needs us to know Greek to understand the Bible, then you underestimate the power of God.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I checked out the link you posted.
Very good. Simple and direct.

Everyone should ready it. It also helps us to understand how our life should be here, right now.

Hi Phart and Fran...I just looked at the link and wow it has some great free books for free, that is wonderful news Praise God, but the one that i want for my son who is in prison they only dispute to America and not other countries, i am so gutted because it is called The New Testament Recovery version and i know it would help my son tremendously as he is a babe in Christ and this book is about recovery from drugs etc and uses Scripture to those who are seeking healing from our Lord...Although i can not order this book I have found from another site they gave that do send free resources for those starting out on their journey so i have ended up will a little gem after all, thank you for the link Phart...xox...

 

[stonesoffire]

KJV Search Results

27 Verses Found, 31 Matches

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Luk 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justifiedby works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


why is it that only the book of James states justified by works?

I know Grace taught this but I think we need reminded.

 

[PHart]

Another cut and paste.
Great.

Please explain 2 peter 2:20-22

Oh wait.
I know...
escaped does not mean escaped.
defilement does not mean defilement.
entangled does not mean entangled.
overcome does not mean overcome.
known does not mean known.


Yes. In order to agree with YOU many parts of the bible have to be changed.
Maybe we could go to the Greek and mislead some people?

Or we could stick to the English which was translated by GREEK SCHOLARS and actually BELIEVE what Peter is saying.
Poor Peter, he spent so many years with our LORD, and some have a difficult time believing what HE TEACHES US
under the inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT, which is GOD.

Talk about grieving the Holy Spirit...

Yes, this is what OSAS is all about.....the plain words of scripture 'don't really' mean what they say. When I realized how many scriptures you have to do this to to arrive at a OSAS conclusion I got off the fence about the subject. It's easily the most dishonest doctrine in all the church. But this doctrine is so empowered by demons who appeal to the flesh, and that's why so many defend it so fiercely, even when it is shown to be the unreasonable doctrine that it is.

The only rational argument worth discussing is whether or not the true believer can stop believing. That's the only OSAS argument I will entertain.

 

[AllenW]

It's easy to say someone is wrong. A bit more difficult to say why. That is why I would like to rep preachers post. He says it so much better than I.

And he and I have disagreement too. But, I have the greatest respect for his teaching on this subject.

If the Spirit of God is speaking through you, then that's all you need.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

With God well be enjoying eternity, freely moving, talking with others etc.. Apart from him is still an existence but it's confined and torturous.

I still can't grasp it. I think there IS no eternal life apart from Him, only the prospect of eternal death. Living forever in eternal torment is not eternal death. It is eternal life. Eternal death to me means ceasing to exist with no prospect of ever living again...if eternal life is in Him, how is it that someone without His Spirit would live forever? That means eternal life is somehow in them apart from Him.

I do believe Satan has eternalness but I don't think we do. I think we, apart from Him, will be raised again only to die in the judgement.

But I am still working on it.

 

[stonesoffire]

If the Spirit of God is speaking through you, then that's all you need.

I don't understand your point Allen.

I am not prophesying here. Nor writing poems.

 

[AllenW]

Yes, this is what OSAS is all about.....the plain words of scripture 'don't really' mean what they say. When I realized how many scriptures you have to do this to to arrive at a OSAS conclusion I got off the fence about the subject. It's easily the most dishonest doctrine in all the church. But this doctrine is so empowered by demons who appeal to the flesh, and that's why so many defend it so fiercely, even when it is shown to be the unreasonable doctrine that it is.

I'm OSAS. And I know you have nothing to say to me about it.

 

[stonesoffire]

There was conflict with James and Paul. Also, Peter was reprimanded for leaving the Gentiles at table and eating with Jewish brethren.

 

[PHart]

why is it that only the book of James states justified by works?

Every author in the Bible who says works are the proof of faith is saying works justify a person. You won't get it though because you probably do not know that 'justified' has two meanings: It means 1) to be made righteous, the way Paul uses it, and 2) to be shown to be righteous, the way James uses it.

Check it out in any dictionary if you do not believe me.

James says a person is BOTH justified by faith AND by works. Faith makes us righteous before God apart from works. Our works show us to have that declaration of right standing with God. The church is taking false comfort in the former and ignores completely the latter, which they do this to their own detriment not knowing that Christ will use your works to determine if you are a sheep that believes in him or a goat that doesn't. The church has taught them to not be able to see this truth in the Bible. It has been removed from the church because it was decided that OSAS is true and so the plain passages that deny OSAS are no longer able to be seen by the church.

 

[stonesoffire]

I'm OSAS. And I know you have nothing to say to me about it.

The only reason that that I can think of that one would think once saved always saved and end up separated from God in the end, is because their belief was only mental without penetrating Spirit. The Spirit of Christ pierces our heart with understanding, and then we place our faith in the Word. That Word is the power to generate one and cause new birth into the Kingdom of Gods Son.