"Not by works" - false!
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Bad terminology on my part. I should have said "second method". One by faith in the gospel and the other via inclusivism (faith in God of some sort...you the proponent of this so you can develop further if you wish)
No, it's appeal is in the fact that God does not leave those who don't have the law and the gospel without witness:
"16In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.” - Acts 14:16-17
"26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ c
29“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance..." - Acts 17:26-30
In the past, how did God overlook man's ignorance of the law and the gospel? I think you're saying he didn't. Paul says he did.
Faith in THE God, not the 'god' of whatever system a person may happen to be held in ignorance by.
This really has little to do with other religions.
It has to do with God reaching the hearts of men who have never heard of the law and the gospel.
The method of salvation via the gospel message or your Romans interpretation is 2 methods. You might say 1 way if you say both of 2 methods use Christ. Thus semantics.
The topic is finished from my view point. I have expressed my opinion as you have yours.
@Fastfredy0 , what does Calvinism do with Romans 2:12-16?
And, while you're at it, the Acts 14 and Acts 17 passages I quoted.
Acts 21 is Paul knowingly and willingly walking into a trap laid for him by the Jews.
the vow is the binding of his hands and feet at the hands of the Jews with "his own belt" as prophesied ((vv. 10-11))
the Jews did not physically tie him up; the Romans did. the Jews deceitfully bound him with a voluntary vow ((this was not the keeping of the Law)), then knowing where he was, having him surrounded and captive at the temple, seized him & handed him over to the Gentiles.
You can read Calvin's commentary at: https://reformed.org/reformed-books/
Basically, nothing here about an alternate method of salvation where 'standard method' is other than hearing the gospel.
It says Jew and Gentile will perish if they sin.
The Jew has the Law telling what to do
The Gentile has the Law in their hearts.
When it comes to salvation all the verses say is you have to obey the law to be justified (aside: saved by obeying the Law which no man can do):
In a nut shell, if you sin you will perish and people have rules for living sinless.
You can read the Calvin's commentary at: https://reformed.org/reformed-books/
The topic is exhausted for me. I heard your side. I responded. I learnt about inclusivism. I am done.
Thanks for the cordial repartee.
definitely not in the libertarian sense. i do not think there is any such thing as an unbiased, un-influenced human. i would have to read more of what Augustine had to say before i know if i agree with him.
i think it is well-exemplified by its first mention in scripture: God told Adam he could "freely eat" of the trees in the garden. Adam therefore has ability to freely choose from available options according to however he wills.
i know that's cryptic of me to say lol let me get back to you
The New Age followers use the terms Higher power and the universe when referring to their god.
J
jaybird88
Guest
if what he teaches lines up with scripture my conclusion would be he is not teaching anything new.
maybe i am mistaken but i remember reading of Herod having many killed who didnt agree with his politics, such as Aristobulus who was high priest and a favorite of the people.
i never believed Jesus to be against the pharisee school of thought, just their leaders at the time. "the greatest commandment", love the Lord, love your fellow man, is a famous teaching of Jesus, this was a teaching of Hillel the elder, a pharisee, who lived just a bit before Jesus. Josephus was a pharisee who spoke very highly of Jesus and James.
J
jaybird88
Guest
he said he followed the example of Jesus and that those in his audience should do the same. the example of Jesus was the law. special note, that statement was made after the crucifixion so you really cant go back and say Jesus said those things under another covenant so they dont count.
there is nothing in the bible to suggest all of a suddon when Jesus starts preaching that you can no longer be forgiven for a sin. the Father always and continues to forgive. you gonna disown your children forever when they make a mistake? so why would the Father do that to us?
everything in the NT is foreshadowed in the old -- but just because it's 'there' doesn't mean we'd recognize it when we read it. it takes great wisdom -- and ((well as Paul said)) they are mysteries that the prophets diligently searched for and angels longed to look into, but were not revealed. i mean now i can look back at the book of Judges and see the gospel written all over it, because the Spirit has opened my eyes to see Christ in all those things. but before these things were 'opened' to us, even while they weren't technically "new" they couldn't be discerned. they still can't without the Spirit -- the Spirit who was at work in Paul when he expounded on all those things. he quotes the OT all the time, and shows how the gospel is in it. for example in Galatians when he says the Hagar & Sarah are two covenants, Sarah the free woman, the Jerusalem above, and Hagar the slave woman, the covenant of the Law. that's not "new" it's from Genesis! but who understood it when they read Genesis, before Christ came? before He sent the Spirit to teach us?
Paul is showing us those things in the scripture in his letters, then they are surely worth reading.
For me, it was significant that there was only one time Recorded in scripture when Jesus was actually standing up In Heaven.
That was just before Stephen Was stoned. Israel leaders had to make a critical decision for the entire nation, whether or not she will accept Jesus as the son of God during that critical moment.
If they did, Jesus would have returned as Peter prophesied in acts 3:19-20.
It turned out they killed Stephen instead. That is when God the father Set the nation aside as in romans 11, revealed the grace dispensation (Ephesians 3:9) thru saving Paul, benefiting the entire gentile world
J
jaybird88
Guest
i agree with you, i believe one can read a poetic verse of Paul or a parable of Jesus and find new things all the time. i believe these are revelations, just the same as revaluations from the heavens. i also believe these are meant only for the one that receives them. it doesnt make them any less true, but IMO they are not meant to use to sway other people when those people can not see it and have no way to test what your teaching.
the issue i have with GJ is the "blind/cursed Jews" idea. these passages have always been blown up throughout history to justify Jewish persicution. i dont believe GJ is doing that but that is exactly where these things start. it goes on and on for so many generations until people start believing that no Jew ever had anything to do with Jesus, as if Jesus and the 12 were Jews but not the same kind of Jews as all the other Jews on the planet. their were tons of Jews that followed and believed in Jesus, we dont need to forget that.
If you are familiar with Romans 11, Paul himself said that the nation Israel has been blinded. I am just reading him literally.
The nation, and not individual Jews, the latter can still be saved thru the same gospel as us, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
But he warned us Gentiles not to be haughty because God still has a plan for Israel, once the Body of Christ is completed with the correct number of Gentiles.
J
jaybird88
Guest
As Paul explained in romans 11, Jews who believed form a remanent of the nation. God always reserves a small group, Elijah also learned that before.
But the nation is now an enemy to God, as vs 28 indicated