"Not by works" - false!

[Fastfredy0]

" For now we see through a glass darkly"

Agreed.

But most protestants agree to the doctrine of Sufficiency of Scripture
The Sufficiency of Scripture (sola Scriptura) means that Scripture contained all the words of God he intended his people to have at each stage of redemptive history, and that it now contains everything we need for salvation (2 Timothy 3:15), for trusting him perfectly, and for obeying him perfectly (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re:
Your answer is unclear.
Are you saying one does not need to hear the gospel to be saved?
Are you saying one who has not heard the gospel can be saved by his righteousness. (His works)????

Only to the extent that one's righteous workings are the expression of his faith in what God has shown him to be true about Himself, as limited as it may be.

I'll try again ... my questions are:
Are you saying one does not need to hear the gospel to be saved?

Assuming your answer to the previous question is YES ...
How is one saved that did not hear the gospel? Please use scripture references.

 

[jaybo]

Here's where Paul talks about grafted in branches being broken off:

"19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you (a grafted in branch) either." - Romans 11:19-21


That's right.
You, personally, can not be grafted back in after you get cut out.
God does not allow that.
That subjects Christ to open shame.

Here is what it says in Romans that you omitted, "Again I ask: Did they [Israel] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

Obviously your claim that you can't be grafted back in is not only wrong, it's anti-Semitic. God can remove branches (including Gentiles) or add them (including Jews) whenever He wants. Again, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.

 

[Magenta]

Please provide scripture to verify your claim that "God can and does talk to people" about salvation as salvation is the context of my question. I assume God's talk to those that have not heard the gosple is about salvation? Can you tell us of people who have not heard the gospel that "God talks to" and about that conversion? Did God tell them about Christ?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:27

. . . the sheep hear His voice. And He calls His own sheep by name and leads them out. John 10:3

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens
the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. Rev 3:20

 

[jackrosie]

Romans10:9

That if you confess with your mouth.
Jesus is Lord,and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved.For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Romans10:9

That if you confess with your mouth.
Jesus is Lord,and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved.

There seems to be others in today's discussion that feel one does not have to "believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved." That those who have not heard the gospel can be saved. That it is necessary for God to allow them to choose to believe or not believe. We have yet to see how they explain this. I'm VERY INTERESTED.

Ephesians 2:12 12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God.

"This is the only place in the New Testament where the word atheos ["without God"] occurs. It is in no contemptuous sense that the Apostle speaks of them as having been 'atheists', or 'godless'. It was the simple and sad description of their actual state, not indeed from their own, but from the only true point of view."
.... Yet, there are those in today's discussion that feel these people may have been saved... that man does have to give them the gospel... that God can speak to them somehow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can God wished ALL should be saved
... if faith cometh by hearing the gospel
.... and we know ALL do not hear the gospel ????



Please provide scripture to verify your claim that "God can and does talk to people" about salvation as salvation is the context of my question. I assume God's talk to those that have not heard the gosple is about salvation? Can you tell us of people who have not heard the gospel that "God talks to" and about that conversion? Did God tell them about Christ?

Agreed ... NO ONE SEEKS GOD. The will of all those whom God did not select is not changed and they go to hell as a result.


Agreed. The word is never received unless the Spirit first regenerates the person thus changing their will. Since God has chosen to save people by the hearing of the gospel, none that have not heard the gospel are regenerated. All remain spiritually dead.[/QUOTE]
Let me have scriptures which say he does not

 

[Fastfredy0]

Please provide scripture to verify your claim that "God can and does talk to people" about salvation as salvation is the context of my question. I assume God's talk to those that have not heard the gosple is about salvation? Can you tell us of people who have not heard the gospel that "God talks to" and about that conversion? Did God tell them about Christ?

Well, that makes two people who state one can be saved without hearing the gospel and yet offer no further explanation.
Thus either:
1) They don't know the explanation or don't wish to share it (This assumes such a 'valid' explanation exists)
or
2) God does not love everyone to the extent that He would offer them a chance of salvation which
....... is evidence God does not love everyone (unless you set a low standard like the rain falls on everyone)
...... or the ones He loves He ensures are saved by changing their hearts via the preaching of the gospel even though they do not seek Him (monergism)

Well @Judges1318 ... you are my last chance. Explain how those who have not heard the gospel are saved please. Explain how those who are WITHOUT GOD (Eph. 2:12) are WITH GOD (no verse exists).

Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please provide scripture to verify your claim that "God can and does talk to people" about salvation as salvation is the context of my question. I assume God's talk to those that have not heard the gosple is about salvation? Can you tell us of people who have not heard the gospel that "God talks to" and about that conversion? Did God tell them about Christ?

Well, that makes two people who state one can be saved without hearing the gospel and yet offer no further explanation.
Thus either:
1) They don't know the explanation or don't wish to share it (This assumes such a 'valid' explanation exists)
or
2) God does not love everyone to the extent that He would offer them a chance of salvation which
....... is evidence God does not love everyone (unless you set a low standard like the rain falls on everyone)
...... or the ones He loves He ensures are saved by changing their hearts via the preaching of the gospel even though they do not seek Him (monergism)

Well @Judges1318 ... you are my last chance. Explain how those who have not heard the gospel are saved please. Explain how those who are WITHOUT GOD (Eph. 2:12) are WITH GOD (no verse exists).

Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God.

Dude stop your lies

i never said such a thing

 

[Fastfredy0]

i never said such a thing

Then I misunderstood. I apologize. Possibly my fault, possibly your communication skills. Let's say it was me.

So I ask for clarification .... I will keep the questions simple to limit misinterpretation. I will understand if you don't want to answer.
Can people who have not heard the gospel cannot be saved? If YES, how is this done (please use scriptures)

 

[posthuman]

Dearest @posthuman I designed this panel following our discussions yesterday

Thank you for the inspiration and for your love of God's Word

i was thinking about it yesterday and it reminded me of this song --

 

[posthuman]

Only to the extent that one's righteous workings are the expression of his faith in what God has shown him to be true about Himself, as limited as it may be.

bearing in mind that

there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.
(Ecclesiastes 7:20)​

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

Agreed.

But most protestants agree to the doctrine of Sufficiency of Scripture
The Sufficiency of Scripture (sola Scriptura) means that Scripture contained all the words of God he intended his people to have at each stage of redemptive history, and that it now contains everything we need for salvation (2 Timothy 3:15), for trusting him perfectly, and for obeying him perfectly (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

1 Corinthians 3: 1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ [not Protestant Beliefs, not Catholic Beliefs, not Mormon Beliefs, not Seventh Day Beliefs, ect.].


[parenthesis color and bold mine]


do we wish to learn from Christ/ the Spirit/ God, or do we wish to learn and decide intead from according to our own chosen, accepted organizations, churches and or, belief Systems, ect., and/or by trying to figure out things from our own limited human understandings and readings of the Bible?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Man's Ability to Choose God via "free will" is 'non-moral' and 'irrational'

Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias.

On the surface this is very appealing. There are no elements of coercion, either internal or external, to be found in it. Below the surface, however, lurk two serious problems; one moral and the other rational. On the one hand, if we make our choices strictly from a neutral posture, with no prior inclination, then we make choices for no reason. If we have no reason for our choices, if our choices are utterly spontaneous, then our choices have no moral significance. If a choice just happens,--it just pops out, with no rhyme or reason for it—then it cannot be judged good or bad. When God evaluates our choices, he is concerned about our motives. (consider Genesis 50:20)

The second problem this popular view faces is not so much moral as it is rational. If there is no prior inclination, desire, or bent, no prior motivation or reason for a choice, how can a choice even be made? If the will is totally neutral, why would it choose the right or the left? If is something like the problem encountered by Alice in Wonderland when she came to a fork in the road. She did not know which way to turn. She saw the grinning Cheshire cat in the tree. She asked the cat, “Which way should I turn?” The cat replied, “Where are you going?” Alice , “I don’t know.”. “Then,” replied the Cheshire cat, “it doesn’t matter.”

Consider Alice’s dilemma. Actually she had four options from which to choose. She could have taken the left fork or the right fork. She also could have chosen to return the way she had come. Or she could have stood fixed at the spot of indecision until she died there. For he to take a step in any direction, she would need some motivation or inclination to do so. Without any motivation, any prior inclination, her only real option would be to stand there and perish.

Therefore, one must reject the neutral-will (free) theory because it is irrational.

Therefore, man's will must be changed by an external force. Man's will is not free. It is in a depraved state (NO ONE SEEKS GOD). ALL of Mankind's desire is only against God. To be saved God must change a person's motivation. God chooses whom he will save. It is not the irrational 'free will' of man.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
Philippians 1:29 For you have been granted [the privilege] for Christ’s sake, not only to believe and confidently trust in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
John 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

 

[Judges1318]

I'll try again ... my questions are:
Are you saying one does not need to hear the gospel to be saved?

Yes, they do not have to hear the specifics of the gospel to be declared righteous.
But this is only true for the person who does not have knowledge of the law and the gospel.

In the case of these people, the law that is written on their hearts is the law of their own conscience, just as we who do have the law/gospel have the law written on our hearts.

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) - Romans 2:14-15

We don't understand this because of bad teaching in the church. We have effectively separated being righteous from acting righteously.

Assuming your answer to the previous question is YES ...
How is one saved that did not hear the gospel? Please use scripture references.

He responds to the conviction of his own conscience.

 

[Judges1318]

Here is what it says in Romans that you omitted, "Again I ask: Did they [Israel] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

Obviously your claim that you can't be grafted back in is not only wrong, it's anti-Semitic. God can remove branches (including Gentiles) or add them (including Jews) whenever He wants. Again, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.

The branches that are grafted back into their own tree (Paul for example) were never saved the way a New Covenant saint has been saved for them to be proof that a person can be saved, be cut out of the tree because of unbelief, and then later grafted back into the tree.

 

[dcontroversal]

It is not that we love him, but that he loved us and gave himself for us.

Loving God is a process of growth and maturity...NO ONE JUST automatically LOVES God.....

Let the LOVE OF GOD BE PERFECTED IN YOU <<--- A process of GROWTH AND MATURITY!

 

[Judges1318]

How can God wished ALL should be saved
... if faith cometh by hearing the gospel
.... and we know ALL do not hear the gospel ????

To sum up: He speaks to them through the law of conscience/nature (Romans 2:12-16), and the testimony of his goodness to them in providing blessings in life (Acts 14:16-17, Acts 17:26-27).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Assuming your answer to the previous question is YES ...
How is one saved that did not hear the gospel? Please use scripture references.

He responds to the conviction of his own conscience.

Well, hallelujah and amen. Someone has the power of his convictions to make a statement and then, when questioned, give an answer.
1 Peter 3:16 But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that you have. But respond with gentleness and respect.

@EleventhHour refused to give me an answer (not the first or second time)
@eternally-gratefull took exception to what I said (not sure exactly what) and accused me of lying. The opposite of the advice of 1 Peter 3:16 which says respond with gentleness and respect. (Aside: I love the ignore option on this site)

I may not agree with you, but kudos for taking the time and respectfully responding.

Anyways, I was hoping for scripture to show those that have not heard the gospel are saved?

Is a higher percentage of people saved that have not heard the gospel?

How do you explain: Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God.

How do they call upon the name of the Lord to be saved? Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.”

Are these not rhetorical questions implying the need of the gospel to be preached in order to be saved?
Romans 10:14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

 

[Judges1318]

I think you are disturbed by the idea that these things could be in God's hands instead of your own, that they are His prerogatives not ours, so you keep trying to make these passages say something other than what they very plainly say. In every single one the things being said to be predestined are people.

I'm not saying those who are predestined are not individual people.
I'm saying being predestined means a chosen/elected person is purposely predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, not purposely predestined to be among the elect.