"Not by works" - false!
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You know I'm not doing that because I said that 'performing works of righteousness' and 'believing' are both things you 'do'. EVERYTHING is something you 'do'. Paul's point is, 'believing' is not like performing righteous works of the law to be justified. They are diametrically opposed to each other, not in regard to the matter of if 'you' do them, but in regard to earning justification or receiving it as a free gift.
Exactly....you don’t work to believe...you just do them automatically.....without effort.
I find it hard to believe too, but I know that some (most) people prefer and love unrighteousness over and above righteousness, and so they reject the irrefutable knowledge of the gospel they have received and say to themselves, "it's not true" (calling God a liar).
You can't relate to this because you have a heart that can and will receive and sustain the word of God. You are what God is drawing out of the earth--soil that has the potential, when exposed to his grace and mercy, to love and cherish righteousness and bring it to fruition.
"...Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." - Titus 2:13-14
You have 'soil' that responds favorably to that purification. Most people do not. That's just a fundamental inherent potential in you as a person, not a potential assigned to you by God ahead of time.
No, but I can't explain right now. I'm on the clock.
Honestly, I detest 'automatic' Christianity.
It just doesn't work that way.
It ends up being an excuse to not be obedient, or want to be obedient.
I hope I understood what you were saying correctly.
I find it hard to believe too, but I know that some (most) people prefer and love unrighteousness over and above righteousness, and so they reject the irrefutable knowledge of the gospel they have received and say to themselves, "it's not true" (calling God a liar).
You can't relate to this because you have a heart that can and will receive and sustain the word of God. You are what God is drawing out of the earth--soil that has the potential, when exposed to his grace and mercy, to love and cherish righteousness and bring it to fruition.
"...Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." - Titus 2:13-14
You have 'soil' that responds favorably to that purification. Most people do not. That's just a fundamental inherent potential in you as a person, not a potential assigned to you by God ahead of time.
What an informative post....I can tell you Love The Lord.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
It worries me you amended this post
This is what he thinks of your grace salvation and you said amen
He’s talking about obedience.....plus a born again should not behave in a manner they choose...we are accountable to God......we are called to Love one another.....not throw dirt constantly.......the Lord is supposed to be in a believer heart.....I am sorry I don’t see that in some on here.....just nastiness.
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EleventhHour
Guest
Sad day when people care so little to preserve the Gospel and empower false dogma and its perpetrators.
Aside: I became confused when you said something like "technically faith is a work, something you do". I am pretty sure you are a proponent of 'prevenient grace (God's grace to sufficiently enable people to choose salvation)'. Anyways ...
We both believe that Faith means trusting what Scripture says to be true and that causes us to obey/follow it, though imperfectly.
I use the dictionary to define work. You use arguments to explain why faith is not a work.
I assume we both believe we are not saved by works.
O.K. Let's try it this way, without the dictionary. I know I won't change your mind, but fun exercise. At least you are polite. Thanks for that.
You say (as I understand it) ... "instead receiving righteousness as a free gift". Thus you argue that Faith is not a work as it is receiving ALL our righteousness from God. Aside: If all our righteousness comes from God, then I would agree with you that faith is not a work)
Let's examine your viewpoint (Aside: I just expressed your viewpoint as I understand it; so feel free to correct me where I err)
Definition: Righteousness - the quality of being morally right or justifiable (hopefully we can use the dictionary this time)
Premise 1: We do not WORK for our salvation
Premise 2: Any act of righteousness leading to salvation is a work
Premise 3: FAITH is an act of righteousness
Premise 4: FAITH in the 'works of Christ' is the essential instrument God uses to justify/save people
Conclusion1: If salvific FAITH comes from GOD then man has not done any work for his salvation
Conclusion2: If salvific FAITH comes from Man then man has done work for his salvation. Thus, because Faith is an act of righteousness and righteousness is a WORK and we are not saved by WORKS it follows that man cannot be responsible for his own faith. Thus FAITH must come from God.
If you can show any premise to be wrong, then it follows that the conclusions are not justified by the argument.
At work? What do you do?
We all misrepresent God's word. Hopefully, unintentionally.
I only wish I had infallible knowledge and more faith.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
This should say amen. Not amended I hate spell check
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No he is talking about what the rest of them are, people like you and me who believe eternal life is eternal as using it as an excuse to not be obedient
You have not been here long. So I can see you may Not understand that
Which right there should tell you this 'believing' is what you do, not what God plants in you.
I sometimes point out that if 'believing' is what God does for you, why is he doing such a lousy job of it in some people?
No, I use Paul's argument to define the 'work' in the works gospel.
He is the one who says 'works' (as we like to refer to it) as working to earn salvation vs. believing to receive salvation as a free gift.
In both cases you 'do' something.
One is 'working' to earn salvation and the other is 'not working' to earn salvation but instead, believing to receive salvation.
"4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." - Romans 4:5
So you can see for yourself, he is the one who defines what he means by 'works' and what he means by 'faith', it's exact counterpart. A dictionary won't define 'works' for you as Paul defines it and uses it.
Maybe the key is to not separate the word 'working' from 'working to earn salvation' in order to avoid any conflict with 'believing' (not working to earn salvation) to receive salvation.
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EleventhHour
Guest
The Gospel message of how one is born again should be well understood by the Justified.
Tried that.
Working to earn salvation is impossible.
Besides, it doesn't do anything about the sins I've already committed.
Re: We both believe that Faith means trusting what Scripture says to be true and that causes us to obey/follow it, though imperfectly.
You misunderstand my position (though, I can see you are close and I can see how you could come to that conclusion)
From my perspective ... God, via regeneration, changes us so that we now desire to believe. (aside: People always seek what they desire most at the time). There is no 'maybe' about this belief. ALL those God chose before the foundation of the earth will, via regeneration of the Spirit, begin to and forever continue to have their heart changed by God such that they will always have faith and this faith causes them to obey, though imperfectly. Bad analogy: I hate apples. God makes me desire and continue to desire/love applies. I now love apples. I would not even know why I now love apples except God told me in His word that those He chooses will some day love apples.
Now, as I see it, you believe God overcomes our depravity (prevenient grace?) and changes our hearts such that some sort of equilibrium occurs so that we can, independent of God, decide to believe or not. We can change our mind. A person is saved because of: 1) The work of Christ and 2) he is more righteous than another.
You misunderstand my position (though, I can see you are close and I can see how you could come to that conclusion)
From my perspective ... God, via regeneration, changes us so that we now desire to believe. (aside: People always seek what they desire most at the time). There is no 'maybe' about this belief. ALL those God chose before the foundation of the earth will, via regeneration of the Spirit, begin to and forever continue to have their heart changed by God such that they will always have faith and this faith causes them to obey, though imperfectly. Bad analogy: I hate apples. God makes me desire and continue to desire/love applies. I now love apples. I would not even know why I now love apples except God told me in His word that those He chooses will some day love apples.
Now, as I see it, you believe God overcomes our depravity (prevenient grace?) and changes our hearts such that some sort of equilibrium occurs so that we can, independent of God, decide to believe or not. We can change our mind. A person is saved because of: 1) The work of Christ and 2) he is more righteous than another.