"Not by works" - false!

[EleventhHour]

Like I say, you simply do not understand what I've been saying all this time.
You can't hear me because you're nursing a personal grudge against me.

...besides the fact that you don't seem to be able to hear anything outside of your little doctrinal box anyway. The personal vendetta you have just makes that worse.

Okay clarify... can a person who is born again loose their salvation and become unsaved/unjustified/unredeemed?

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hi @Judges1318 ...
I am not sure to be honest if you have me on ignore , and the reason I say this is because I reached out to you to ask for your forgiveness about my attitude towards you a little while back , but you did not reply to me...
Then I made an open appoligy to you on the NBW forum , tagging your name , but you still did not reply...

I stepped out off line a few times towards you , and admitted I was acting from my flesh , I knew it was wrong , but I am just wondering why you never replied to me , or maybe you do have me on ignore ...
Could you please reply to this message if you see it please and thank you...

 

[Just_Jo]

 

[Chester]

Okay clarify... can a person who is born again loose their salvation and become unsaved/unjustified/unredeemed?

You didn't ask me, but here is my answer:

A person who is believing in Jesus and his blood sacrifice is saved forever.
The person who is not believing in Jesus and his blood sacrifice is not saved.

I am not able to make the judgment (nor is it my duty) as to whether a person is believing or not believing. Yes, there are signs that follow when a person is believing, but that does not give me the right to determine the eternal destiny of another.

Scripture clearly says that a believer should keep on believing and growing in belief. I personally know by the testimony of the Spirit in me that I have believed and am believing in Jesus Christ. PTL! And I also know that I am a human being with the moral capacity to be the worst Hitlar in the world!

So you will not find me saying that I am saved today because I became a Christian 30 years ago. I am saved today because today I am believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[jackrosie]

You are saved in the deepest of struggles with sin.
It's when you stop believing and trusting in Christ that you lose your salvation.
But no believer's honest struggle with sin can ever separate them from the salvation that they have in the Christ they cling to.
You'll have to go back to willful unbelief to lose that.[/QUOTE]

Hi Judges...I was saved when I repented of my sins and cried out to Jesus.

A true born again can never stop believing in Christ...because the Holy Spirit resides in their spirit.

I honestly only clung to God as a new babe.....I thought I had to be good or he would leave me....I was like that for quite a while..burnt myself out and became very ill....

After time the Lord showed me that I wasn’t relying on him I was relying on self...it’s a very long story...but I am at a place now where I completely trust and rely on him....a born again can never ever have wilful unbelief,..how can they when the Holy Spirit is in their heart.

I rely on him for everything...even the strength he gave me today to carry my shopping home..he carried most of it for me...that’s the faith I have....

 

[Fastfredy0]

How about I just use the definition the Bible gives for faith, and from a more translated version as opposed to an interpretative version:

"1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. " - Hebrews 11:1

Faith is the evidence and substance of the hope of Christ. It's the essence of what you can't see verify as real with your eyes. This is what God gives everyone through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The difference is, some keep that faith and place their trust in the truth it reveals. Others reject that faith that has shown them the gospel is real and cast it away in unbelief. But both were shown that the gospel really is true.

I don't accept your definition of FAITH as it shows characteristics of FAITH and not a definition. Example: I can say LOVE is NICE; yet, NICE does not define LOVE.
If you don't accept the English definition of FAITH, the definition vast majority of Christians use, then conversation on the subject is confusing and of no avail. (Two cannot walk together unless they are agreed ... so to speak)

Definition per https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=define+faith
FAITH = strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

 

[EleventhHour]

You didn't ask me, but here is my answer:

A person who is believing in Jesus and his blood sacrifice is saved forever.
The person who is not believing in Jesus and his blood sacrifice is not saved.

I am not able to make the judgment (nor is it my duty) as to whether a person is believing or not believing. Yes, there are signs that follow when a person is believing, but that does not give me the right to determine the eternal destiny of another.

Scripture clearly says that a believer should keep on believing and growing in belief. I personally know by the testimony of the Spirit in me that I have believed and am believing in Jesus Christ. PTL! And I also know that I am a human being with the moral capacity to be the worst Hitlar in the world!

So you will not find me saying that I am saved today because I became a Christian 30 years ago. I am saved today because today I am believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then you are in agreement with Judges.
You have disconnected your belief/faith from the object of that belief.

The Gift is not given over a lifetime... sorry it does not work that way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are saved in the deepest of struggles with sin.
It's when you stop believing and trusting in Christ that you lose your salvation.
But no believer's honest struggle with sin can ever separate them from the salvation that they have in the Christ they cling to.
You'll have to go back to willful unbelief to lose that.

Hi Judges...I was saved when I repented of my sins and cried out to Jesus.

A true born again can never stop believing in Christ...because the Holy Spirit resides in their spirit.

I honestly only clung to God as a new babe.....I thought I had to be good or he would leave me....I was like that for quite a while..burnt myself out and became very ill....

After time the Lord showed me that I wasn’t relying on him I was relying on self...it’s a very long story...but I am at a place now where I completely trust and rely on him....a born again can never ever have wilful unbelief,..how can they when the Holy Spirit is in their heart.

I rely on him for everything...even the strength he gave me today to carry my shopping home..he carried most of it for me...that’s the faith I have....

Amen


Legalistic thoughts tend to point your focus to self and away from God

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Legalistic thoughts tend to point your focus to self and away from God

So in the entire old testament (before Christ came) God was angry with Israel time and again because they repeatedly failed to focus on themselves by obeying the law; thereby focusing away from God?

Where did you learn to say foolish things like this?

 

[mailmandan]

Spanking babies in Christ and calling them out on their childish, ungodly behavior is not a meltdown.

You are the master of irony and I know a meltdown when I see one. You need to man up and stop trying to justify your meltdown.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Let's try it using the Bible's definition of 'faith':

I'll just use the version you used:

"It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have 'the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen' in Jesus." Romans 3:26

Looks good to me.
It's what I've been saying.

Again, Hebrews 1:11 gives characteristics of FAITH and not a definition. Your definition of FAITH is: "What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe".

When I point of that your definition of FAITH, when inserted into Romans 3:36 gives one an unbiblical result, you insert some of the 'characteristics' of FAITH found in Hebrews 11:1 as your new definition. I think that is called 'bait and switch'.

Aside: Why I am arguing for the need to let the English dictionary define words is becoming beyond reason

Romans 3:26 (using your definition of FAITH) reads:
It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith had God enable them to be able to believe or not believe" in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

Your definition of FAITH has changed the way one is justified. Now all who God has enabled to believe or not believe are justified using your definition of FAITH. You are an intelligent guy. The logic seems inescapable.

PLEASE USE THE DICTIONARY for communication of ideas or all is lost.

 

[Judges1318]

You have disconnected your belief/faith from the object of that belief.

This is exactly where you twist my argument.

The present believer remains saved because he continues to trust in the One who saves him.

 

[jackrosie]

This is exactly where you twist my argument.

The present believer remains saved because he continues to trust in the One who saves him.

Judges,we remain saved..full stop....it was the trusting I struggled with to start with.......over time the Holy Spirit built my trust up.....he knows me...like no other...he is God.

 

[EleventhHour]

This is exactly where you twist my argument.

The present believer remains saved because he continues to trust in the One who saves him.

I see you did not address my other post.

Well then you make the GIFT a life long event which it is not, and the GIFT being given by Jesus incumbent upon the person streeeeetching out their belief until their final breath to be received.

A person does not take a life time to be born.

 

[Judges1318]

Again, Hebrews 1:11 gives characteristics of FAITH and not a definition. Your definition of FAITH is: "What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe".

When I point of that your definition of FAITH, when inserted into Romans 3:36 gives one an unbiblical result, you insert some of the 'characteristics' of FAITH found in Hebrews 11:1 as your new definition. I think that is called 'bait and switch'.

Aside: Why I am arguing for the need to let the English dictionary define words is becoming beyond reason

Romans 3:26 (using your definition of FAITH) reads:
It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith had God enable them to be able to believe or not believe" in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

Your definition of FAITH has changed the way one is justified. Now all who God has enabled to believe or not believe are justified using your definition of FAITH. You are an intelligent guy. The logic seems inescapable.

PLEASE USE THE DICTIONARY for communication of ideas or all is lost.

We don't need to do that.
All we need to do is look at Romans 12:3-8 and how it shows us that faith is from God, the response to faith is from you. If you disagree with that, show us from that passage why it isn't saying that.

3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, b do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

See it?
Faith comes from God.
The response to faith comes from YOU.
It couldn't be any clearer.

The faith God gives is at YOUR disposal, to do what you wish to do with it.
You can throw it away in neglect or unbelief, or you can retain it and trust what it has revealed to you.
Clearly, 'faith', and your response to the faith God gives are two distinct things.
There is the confidence/ conviction that what you can't see is true, and there is the believing/trusting you do in response to the confidence/ conviction you have received. 'Faith' and 'believing' are not synonymous, though the terms will be frequently interchanged with each other. Some people know the truth, but don't believe/trust in it.

 

[Judges1318]

Judges,we remain saved..full stop....it was the trusting I struggled with to start with.......over time the Holy Spirit built my trust up.....he knows me...like no other...he is God.

You are certainly entitled to believe that you can never stop believing. And you are certainly entitled to think that all true believers can not stop believing. I will not attempt to suppress your right to express that belief. But you'll have to show me that in the Bible to get me to agree with it.

 

[Judges1318]

I see you did not address my other post.

I just don't think you comprehend very well.
I believe that a person can lose (not 'loose') their salvation.
That's not the part you are twisting.

 

[jackrosie]

You are certainly entitled to believe that you can never stop believing. And you are certainly entitled to think that's true of all believers. I will not attempt to suppress your right to express that belief. But you'll have to show me that in the Bible to get me to agree with it.

Hi Judges..it is scripture that a born again can never ever be taken out of the hands of Jesus..the reason being God gave us to Jesus.
I will look up the scripture and post it..unless someone else does it before me.

 

[Judges1318]

I see you did not address my other post.

Well then you make the GIFT a life long event which it is not, and the GIFT being given by Jesus incumbent upon the person streeeeetching out their belief until their final breath to be received.

A person does not take a life time to be born.

Like i said, I do not believe that unbelievers will inherit the kingdom of God. You do because you insist that a person can stop believing and they are still saved because salvation is a one time irreversible event and is not by works.

Sorry, but you will never convince me that an unbeliever will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Judges1318]

Hi Judges..it is scripture that a born again can never ever be taken out of the hands of Jesus..the reason being God gave us to Jesus.
I will look up the scripture and post it..unless someone else does it before me.

I'm well aware of the arguments.
I'll be glad to address them as time permits.