"Not by works" - false!

[Judges1318]

Judges: I may have misunderstood but didn't eternally-gratefull say "Christ holds us you can't hold yourself. If you are trying you have failed already" ? And your reply ???? Again I may have misunderstood if I did I apologize.

Yes, he said, "you can't hold yourself".
He said, "If your trying to do that. You have failed already".
I submit to you that if you're not holding onto Christ that you have failed.

To them it's a one sided street: You do nothing (or else that would be works), and Christ does all the holding.
That's not true.
As I've shown, he holds us, while we hold onto him, through our faith.
They say believing is a work of the works gospel if you do it.
Ask 'em.

 

[Judges1318]

Romans 4:5 does not define the word WORK

It defines it's application.
That's where you get yourself in trouble with words.

Obviously, in Romans 4:5, believing/ trusting is not included with the works that can not justify.
A point made all the more obvious when you see in context that he is specifically talking about works of the law not being able to justify a person.

 

[Judges1318]

Romans 4:5 says Believing is Not a work to which I am in agreement. Romans 4:5 does not tell one why "believing is not a work".
I submit that believing is not a work because it is GOD that causes one to believe.

It's because believing in Christ is not a work of the law.
Context, my friend, context.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, he said, "you can't hold yourself".
He said, "If your trying to do that. You have failed already".
I submit to you that if you're not holding onto Christ that you have failed.

To them it's a one sided street: You do nothing (or else that would be works), and Christ does all the holding.
That's not true.
As I've shown, he holds us, while we hold onto him, through our faith.
They say believing is a work of the works gospel if you do it.
Ask 'em.

Remember the context is salvation

Not sanctification

So to anyone who sees this. Let’s get what I said correctly. Not judges twisted view if what he thinks I am saying

 

[Judges1318]

I submit that believing is not a work because it is GOD that causes one to believe.

Yes, God causes one to believe. He does that by providing the evidence of the gospel--the faith--upon which you then place your trust in the gospel. You have to make the distinction between 'faith' (the evidence of the gospel), and the 'believing/trusting' a person does in response to the evidence of faith presented to them. God gives the faith, you do the trusting in response to the faith he gave you. God gives the faith 'to believe'.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God is love

Your main contention is "GOD IS LOVE" and I agree. From your definition of LOVE, you determine God's other attributes and how He must act. I submit that you definition of GOD'S LOVE is inaccurate.

I state that GOD'S LOVE must be HOLY. Your usage of the meaning of GOD'S LOVE would make God unholy (which I am sure is not your intention).


Proof:
Consider the HOLINESS of God's Love
“A love of holiness cannot be without a hatred of everything that is contrary to it. As God necessarily loves himself, so he must necessarily hate everything that is against himself: and as he loves himself for his own excellency and holiness, he must necessarily detest whatsoever is repugnant to his holiness, because of the evil of it. Since he is infinitely good, he cannot but love goodness Psalm 11:7 “The righteous Lord loveth righteousness,” as it is a resemblance to himself, and cannot but abhor unrighteousness Psalm 11:6A Upon the wicked (godless) He will rain coals of fire, as being most distant from him, and contrary to him. If he have any esteem for his own perfections, he must needs have an implacable aversion to all that is so repugnant to him (Psalm 5:5 You hate all who do evil), that would, if it were possible, destroy him, and is a point directed, not only against his glory, but against his life. If he did not hate it, he would hate himself: for since righteousness is his image, and sin would deface his image; if he did not love his image, and loathe what is against his image, he would loathe himself, he would be an enemy to his own nature. Nay, if it were possible for him to love it, it were possible for him not to be holy, it were possible then for him to deny himself, and will that he were no God, which is a palpable contradiction.

He can no more cease to hate impurity than he can cease to love holiness: if he should in the least instant approve of anything that is filthy, in that moment he would disapprove of his own nature and being

In short, I submit your definition of GOD'S LOVE must ensure His love is HOLY. (Aside: His Love should not be in conflict with His other attributes either i.e. immutable)

 

[Fastfredy0]

Another thing....Faith.....I took my dog for a walk this morning.well into the walk I found to only have one poo bag...my dog always poos x2..further on in the walk....there was a clean poo bag on the pavement.....to me that bag was from God.....
Some may laugh at that,but God knew that I only had one poo bag,and provided the other one on the way.

Well, that did make me laugh. Thanks for that. I agree that God planned to have a "poo bag" for you this morning. Tomorrow, I would take 2 poo bags as God may not plan to have a second "poo bag" tomorrow.

*continues to giggle to himself*

Aside: Maybe God loves you more than me as I am more apt to STEP IN POO.

 

[Guojing]

Topic: We are saved by works

Premise1: Work is defined by the dictionary as an "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result."
Premise2: Man's faith comes from himself, not God
Conclusion: Believing Christ died and rose from the dead (faith) is a work for it is the "mental effort" of Christians done to "achieve the purpose" of salvation and obedience to God. Thus all those of as defined in premised 2 logically are of the opinion that "we are saved by works".

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good], but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is [a]credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God).

Romans 4:5 does not define the word WORK; the dictionary is the authority of the meanings of words and therefore Premise1 must be true or there is no authority for the meaning of words and communication breaks down.
Romans 4:5 says Believing is Not a work to which I am in agreement. Romans 4:5 does not tell one why "believing is not a work".
I submit that believing is not a work because it is GOD that causes one to believe.
God does not contradict himself. He says believing is not a WORK and He says we are saved by BELIEVING which is a work by definition.

It seems you are agreeing with my point. So by Romans 4:5, your premise 1 is incorrect. Believing is not a work, because that verse contrasted both terms.

 

[Judges1318]

Remember the context is salvation

Not sanctification

So to anyone who sees this. Let’s get what I said correctly. Not judges twisted view if what he thinks I am saying

You do not hold onto yourself (as if that's what the argument is, which it is not). You hold onto Christ. He holds onto you.
That's what the Bible says.

You remain in him, he remains in you.

 

[Judges1318]

It seems you are agreeing with my point. So by Romans 4:5, your premise 1 is incorrect. Believing is not a work, because that verse contrasted both terms.

At least it's not a work among the works that can't justify.

 

[Fastfredy0]

my belief is that a person that has living faith would NEVER revert to works.

This is interesting...if true then no Roman Catholic that adheres to R.C. theology would be saved.

I lean to your side but wonder if a person can saved yet wrongly believe they must do something (works) to be saved. Galatians 5:2 has always intrigued me.

Aside: I am not talking about doing something like BELIEVING ... I will take that off the table for this post.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You do not hold onto yourself (as if that's what the argument is, which it is not). You hold onto Christ. He holds onto you.
That's what the Bible says.

You remain in him, he remains in you.

The Bible says he will Never let me go

I base my faith on the hope of this fact

It’s not god plus you it’s god

 

[Fastfredy0]

if it's ok I would like to stay in this room and possibly post. PTL.

I'll throw you a dollar if you agree with me.

 

[Judges1318]

You see, @Fastfredy0 , up until the time of God's appearing, justification was (erroneously) thought to be secured through keeping the law. Probably because of passages like this:

"25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.” - Deuteronomy 6:25

But now with the appearing of Christ, that misunderstanding is being set straight by Paul. Justification is through having faith in God, and always has been, citing Abraham as the proof of that.

So you see, it's not about justification being by not doing any kind of 'work' at all. It's about not doing the works of the law to be justified. It has nothing to do with you doing absolutely nothing at all to be justified. No. Justification comes by you believing/trusting in Christ, through his gracious gift of faith that enables you to do that believing/trusting. Justification does not come by being careful to obey all of the law as was erroneously thought up to that time.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It seems you are agreeing with my point. So by Romans 4:5, your premise 1 is incorrect. Believing is not a work, because that verse contrasted both terms.

Premise1 must be correct as the dictionary is the authority on the meaning of words.
Now, if you are saying that the dictionary does not define words ... then, if your opinion is correct, then myargument fails. To this I agree.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes, God causes one to believe.

Respectfully, you at times do not use the dictionary to define what words means, thus sharing of ideas is very difficult.
Example: You define FAITH as God's giving one the ability to decide to believe salvifically or not

 

[Judges1318]

The Bible says he will Never let me go

He won't.
That's why you should keep believing in him.

"14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14

"23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful." - Hebrews 10:23

I base my faith on the hope of this fact

Wait.
Didn't you say he does that, not you?
I'm pretty sure you've been saying that is you trying to save yourself if you're basing your faith on his salvation.[/QUOTE]

 

[Judges1318]

Respectfully, you at times do not use the dictionary to define what words means, thus sharing of ideas is very difficult.
Example: You define FAITH as God's giving one the ability to decide to believe salvifically or not

Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
It is the evidence upon which you then do your believing/trusting.
I know this is going to be hard for you to grasp because of what you've been taught.
And I'm showing you from Romans itself the faulty premise(s) upon which your doctrine has been based.

You should not be surprised that so many in the church, even highly respected and educated people, like John McArthur, have missed the truth. I mean, look at how they teach tithing. You can see that they teach it completely wrong when you read the plain words of the Bible for yourself.

 

[Judges1318]

Premise1 must be correct as the dictionary is the authority on the meaning of words.
Now, if you are saying that the dictionary does not define words ... then, if your opinion is correct, then myargument fails. To this I agree.

But the Bible is the authority on how those words are used. And Paul is plainly contrasting the work that can not justify with the 'work' that can.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So you see, it's not about justification being by not doing anything.

I agree with most of your post assuming you are using your words as defined in the dictionary.

I don't agree with your statement above; though I can see how you might misinterpret what I have said.

I do not say we do nothing for our salvation. (I have to be careful here, as you use the word FAITH differently than other source)
Aside: Gee, I will just talk using FAITH as everyone else understands it ... you will have to use the dictionary to understand

We are saved by Faith... we do do something. The reason, IMO, we do believe is God first changes one's heart the this is the cause of our belief which is the effect. God causes us to believe (effect).
In short, regeneration precedes Faith and it is the Spirit that regenerates.