No more of works?

[GRACE_ambassador]

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 24:47)

Correction needed (Luk 13:3,5, 24:47; Mar 1:4) - I apologize...

Amen.

 

[robert1978bp]

What are some thoughts on the following passage? "Then is it no more of works." When did grace start? When was it by works?

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This relates to the 144,000 that are sealed from the tribes of Israel.
The rest were blinded for the Gentiles sake. When the fullness of Gentiles is complete, Israel is to be grafted back into the Branch.

 

[FredVB]

Change of mind is part of it, but is with turning from sin we know of and sin we are aware of when we are made aware of it. The rabbit hole goes deep. With repentance we are ready for changing in what we are shown for that, which God will do if we are in the relationship we should have with God.

God has grace for us who come to him through the way in Christ, it still is for change in the way God provides for.

 

[rogerg]

Change of mind is part of it, but is with turning from sin we know of and sin we are aware of when we are made aware of it. The rabbit hole goes deep. With repentance we are ready for changing in what we are shown for that, which God will do if we are in the relationship we should have with God.

God has grace for us who come to him through the way in Christ, it still is for change in the way God provides for.

God gives grace by the which, those He has chosen are brought to Him by Christ

 

[Soyeong]

What are some thoughts on the following passage? "Then is it no more of works." When did grace start? When was it by works?

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Grace us a gift and gift can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works are done to earn a wage, however doing good works in obedience to God's law is about God giving us the gift of salvation, not about us earning our salvation as a wage from God, which is why there are many verses that connect grace with our obedience to God.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is the content of His gift of salvation.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn as a wage the opportunity to experience driving it. In a similar way, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience.

 

[oyster67]

When was it by works?

Perhaps that is a reference to animal sacrifices in the OT?

 

[rogerg]

Grace us a gift and gift can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works are done to earn a wage, however doing good works in obedience to God's law is about God giving us the gift of salvation, not about us earning our salvation as a wage from God, which is why there are many verses that connect grace with our obedience to God.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is the content of His gift of salvation.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn as a wage the opportunity to experience driving it. In a similar way, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience.

Anything that a person must "do" to be saved, no matter how slight that doing might be, would make salvation not of grace but of their works - it can only be completely of one or of the other: works and grace cannot coexist in any form. For salvation to be of/from God's grace, it must be given with no preconditions or requirements associated to it whatsoever: God gives salvation in-total and in its completeness to those whom He had so chosen for it, at a time that He had chosen to impart it. Being God, it was fully within His divine right, prerogative, and good pleasure to do so in any manner He wanted to, with no explanations, apologies nor subterfuge required by Him for it - He just gives it - and that is what makes it by grace and makes God an exceedingly merciful and gracious God. Otherwise, no one could ever become saved.

 

[Soyeong]

Anything that a person must "do" to be saved, no matter how slight that doing might be, would make salvation not of grace but of their works - it can only be completely of one or of the other: works and grace cannot coexist in any form. For salvation to be of/from God's grace, it must be given with no preconditions or requirements associated to it whatsoever: God gives salvation in-total and in its completeness to those whom He had so chosen for it, at a time that He had chosen to impart it. Being God, it was fully within His divine right, prerogative, and good pleasure to do so in any manner He wanted to, with no explanations, apologies nor subterfuge required by Him for it - He just gives it - and that is what makes it by grace and makes God an exceedingly merciful and gracious God. Otherwise, no one could ever become saved.

If you had been speaking specially about works done to earn a wage, then I would agree with you, but works can be done for any number of other reasons that are compatible with grace, which is why I cited a number of verses that connect grace with works, so you are incorrect. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. For example, in Titus 2:11-13, we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, so doing those works is a requirement for God's gift of saving us from not doing them, but having first done those works is not a precondition for salvation. Again, I spoke about how the content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, so please interact with that point.

 

[rogerg]

If you had been speaking specially about works done to earn a wage, then I would agree with you, but works can be done for any number of other reasons that are compatible with grace, which is why I cited a number of verses that connect grace with works, so you are incorrect. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. For example, in Titus 2:11-13, we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, so doing those works is a requirement for God's gift of saving us from not doing them, but having first done those works is not a precondition for salvation. Again, I spoke about how the content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, so please interact with that point.

If you are saying that those who become saved perform good works, with those good works being of sharing the gospel, I could
agree with that, but only if those good works come from salvation, and not bringing nor contributing to salvation: that we are saved unto good works. Salvation is a gift, fully and completely. All Christian actions and good works, come only as a result of that. Notice in the below verses that nowhere do they specify any contribution by man made necessary: "not by works of righteousness which we have done", "according to his mercy he saved us" , "renewing of the Holy Ghost", "he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ". If saved, we were but the recipients of salvation.


[Tit 3:4-6 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[Soyeong]

If you are saying that those who become saved perform good works, with those good works being of sharing the gospel, I could
agree with that, but only if those good works come from salvation, and not bringing nor contributing to salvation. Salvation is a gift, fully and completely. All Christian actions and good works, come only as a result of that. Notice in the below verses that nowhere do they specify any contribution by man made necessary: "not by works of righteousness which we have done", "according to his mercy he saved us" , "renewing of the Holy Ghost", "he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ". If saved, we were but the recipients of salvation.


[Tit 3:4-6 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

In Titus 2:11-13, it does not say that we are required to have first done those works in order to result in our salvation or that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), which has nothing to do with contributing our own works as if what Christ accomplished were insufficient. In Titus 3:4-6, it denies that our salvation is earned as the result of our works, but does not deny that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do good works, so it is in accordance with my position.

 

[rogerg]

In Titus 2:11-13, it does not say that we are required to have first done those works in order to result in our salvation or that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), which has nothing to do with contributing our own works as if what Christ accomplished were insufficient. In Titus 3:4-6, it denies that our salvation is earned as the result of our works, but does not deny that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do good works, so it is in accordance with my position.

What I am trying to say is that salvation stands alone, apart, and above, everything else, with nothing besides God having any power or control over it in any way- with all else only resulting from it. Is that what you believe?
BTW I think that God's grace is unto salvation, with salvation being that which brings forth good works. I do not think anyone is "trained" (depending upon what you meant by trained) unto performing good works - instead, that good works originate from the heart of those saved, through the renewing of the heart and of the mind by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Soyeong]

What I am trying to say is that salvation stands alone, apart, and above, everything else, with nothing besides God having any power or control over it in any way- with all else only resulting from it. Is that what you believe?
BTW I think that God's grace is unto salvation, with salvation being that which brings forth good works. I do not think anyone is "trained" (depending upon what you meant by trained) unto performing good works - instead, that good works originate from the heart of those saved, through the renewing of the heart and of the mind by the Holy Spirit.

I'm not seeing Titus 2:11-13 as saying that we need to have become saved first, then we will bring forth good works as the result, but as describing the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained to do those works. The word used means "trained", "educated", "taught", or "instructed", so it clearly involves us participating being taught the experience of doing those works. Trying to remove our involvement from our salvation misunderstands the content of what God's gift of salvation is. For example, honoring our parents through faith in Jesus being intrinsically part of concept of him saving us from not honoring our parents, which God is teaching us to experience, but still intrinsically involves us participating in having that experience. I agree that nothing that we do results in earning our salvation primarily because God's law was never given as a way of earning our salvation even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm not seeing Titus 2:11-13 as saying that we need to have become saved first, then we will bring forth good works as the result, but as describing the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained to do those works. The word used means "trained", "educated", "taught", or "instructed", so it clearly involves us participating being taught the experience of doing those works. Trying to remove our involvement from our salvation misunderstands the content of what God's gift of salvation is. For example, honoring our parents through faith in Jesus being intrinsically part of concept of him saving us from not honoring our parents, which God is teaching us to experience, but still intrinsically involves us participating in having that experience. I agree that nothing that we do results in earning our salvation primarily because God's law was never given as a way of earning our salvation even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it.

Your explanation of saving from sin seems to mean we are saved from committing sins. We are saved from our sins, but not in that sense. We are saved from the penalty our sins deserve.
Now it is true we, as we are sanctified after we are saved, will come less and less under the power of sin. But this comes after we are saved.
If I misunderstood what you wrote, please explain.

 

[Soyeong]

Your explanation of saving from sin seems to mean we are saved from committing sins. We are saved from our sins, but not in that sense. We are saved from the penalty our sins deserve.
Now it is true we, as we are sanctified after we are saved, will come less and less under the power of sin. But this comes after we are saved.
If I misunderstood what you wrote, please explain.

In Titus 2:11-13, it describes our salvation in the sense of being saved from continuing to live in sin, not in the sense of the penalty of our sin. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so our salvation from sin must involve both Jesus giving himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14). Our salvation, justification, and sanctification all have past, present, and future aspects, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:8), we are being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10).

 

[Cameron143]

In Titus 2:11-13, it describes our salvation in the sense of being saved from continuing to live in sin, not in the sense of the penalty of our sin. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so our salvation from sin must involve both Jesus giving himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14). Our salvation, justification, and sanctification all have past, present, and future aspects, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:8), we are being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10).

I'm not sure that's what Titus 2 is teaching. The subject isn't salvation, but grace. And the teaching is that the same grace that brought salvation also teaches us how to live in this condition.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm not sure that's what Titus 2 is teaching. The subject isn't salvation, but grace. And the teaching is that the same grace that brought salvation also teaches us how to live in this condition.

Titus 2:12 describes the salvation that grace brings to all people. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, which is eternal life (John 17:3), and which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law, and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. So the way of salvation is consistent throughout both the OT and the NT.

 

[Cameron143]

Titus 2:12 describes the salvation that grace brings to all people. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, which is eternal life (John 17:3), and which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law, and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. So the way of salvation is consistent throughout both the OT and the NT.

Do you believe God teaches us and we are thereby able to keep the commandments and receive eternal life?

 

[rogerg]

I'm not seeing Titus 2:11-13 as saying that we need to have become saved first, then we will bring forth good works as the result, but as describing the content of God's gift of salvation as being trained to do those works.

Read further down to 2:14. It informs us there, that those for whom He gave Himself - those whom He redeemed (saved) - were redeemed from "all iniquity" (sin), through which redeeming, Christ makes those whom He saves to become "zealous" (or filled with a burning zeal) to perform good works' ; that is, good works can only come as a result of, and from, redemption (or salvation) by Christ - it cannot come by man. Based upon that, we can see that to make one zealous for good works, they must first have been saved by Christ, however, those good works are good only according to God's standards, not by man's.

[Tit 2:14 KJV] 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The word used means "trained", "educated", "taught", or "instructed", so it clearly involves us participating being taught the experience of doing those works. Trying to remove our involvement from our salvation misunderstands the content of what God's gift of salvation is

No, if given as a gift, we can have absolutely no participation in our receiving salvation, otherwise, it wouldn't be a gift.
Look again at the verses I posted previously. I'll post again here:

[Tit 3:4-6 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Do you see the "not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us", part?
That clearly tells us salvation is by/from God alone from its beginning to its end, with no participation by man either needed nor permitted.

For example, honoring our parents through faith in Jesus being intrinsically part of concept of him saving us from not honoring our parents, which God is teaching us to experience, but still intrinsically involves us participating in having that experience.

As with all attributes of salvation, the above comes from it, but it is not to it.

QUOTE="Soyeong, post: 5168594, member: 326808"]I agree that nothing that we do results in earning our salvation primarily because God's law was never given as a way of earning our salvation even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so that was never the goal of why we should obey it.[/QUOTE]

You're saying that you agree there is nothing whatsoever a man can do to contribute to his salvation - that it is given
solely as a gift of God?

 

[Soyeong]

Do you believe God teaches us and we are thereby able to keep the commandments and receive eternal life?

Yes, in Deuteronomy 30:11-16, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life, and Romans 10:5-8 references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome.

In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, God's law is our very life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments will be given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Proverbs 3:18, it is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so living in obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, in Deuteronomy 30:11-16, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life, and Romans 10:5-8 references that passage as the word of faith that we proclaim. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome.

In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, God's law is our very life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments will be given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Proverbs 3:18, it is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so living in obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life.

So, it is only through our obedience that we obtain eternal life?