Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Magenta]

Jesus said we can hear to reject or accept.

14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words

16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
^
There's literally not a single mention about our ears needing to be circumcised to hear.

But even if we go that route, Jesus said when people hear they are able to reject or accept. Which means, ears that have been opened/circumcised can still reject the Gospel.

Just recently I've seen several mentions in the Bible of man's ears needing to be circumcised ... and Jesus used the phrase "those with ears to hear" a number of times also. Given that the natural man rejects the things of God, how do you propose he suddenly becomes able to hear the Truth of the gospel message in order to choose to believe, when he is a slave to sin, loves his sin, suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, and is doing the will of the devil... all without any intervention from God? Intervention, I will add, that some have characterized as God taking people hostage/kidnapping them. LOL!!!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Just recently I've seen several mentions in the Bible of man's ears needing to be circumcised ... and Jesus used the phrase "those with ears to hear" a number of times also. Given that the natural man rejects the things of God, how do you propose he suddenly becomes able to hear the Truth of the gospel message in order to choose to believe, when he is a slave to sin, loves his sin, suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, and is doing the will of the devil... all without any intervention from God?

If you read the verses I provided none of the verses before or after make any such claim.

But let's say they need to be circumcised. Jesus is still saying circumcised ears to hear can still freely reject Him. So I have no issue if we say all who hear the Gospel their ears have been circumcised because we know Jesus said those who hear still can accept or reject His words.

That means they understand what they are rejecting.

 

[Magenta]

If you read the verses I provided none of the verses before or after make any such claim.

But let's say they need to be circumcised. Jesus is still saying circumcised ears to hear can still freely reject Him. So I have no issue if we say all who hear the Gospel their ears have been circumcised because we know Jesus said those who hear still can accept or reject His words.

That means they understand what they are rejecting.

I thought you believed in harmonizing Scriptures. Anyways, I am not sure the gospel is understood by those who reject it, but I have never said anything against people having a choice. The issue seems to come down to whether or not people can make a choice in the affirmative without having their hearts circumcised. Many here speak against it as though it was not required. And as if God doing so is an active kidnapping. And no, heart circumcision is not mentioned in every single verse either.

 

[Eli1]

Even, when i do this conversation in real life where you save a lot of time in back-and-forth questions to understand someone's point or understanding of a topic, you hit a roadblock when people are caught without an answer to explain why they believe what they believe.
They just mentally block themselves and say "I don't want to talk about this anymore".
My Protestant friend at work, had a lot of mental blocks when i asked him questions about Salvation and i don't blame him because he's a victim of the whole Catholic Church in America syndrome.

Nevermind online via text where it becomes sort of impossible due to the length of time in responses and pages that you have to go through.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I thought you believed in harmonizing Scriptures. Anyways, I am not sure the gospel is understood by those who reject it, but I have never said anything against people having a choice. The issue seems to come down to whether or not people can make a choice in the affirmative without having their hearts circumcised. Is many here speak against it. And no that is not mentioned in every single verse either.

I am harmonizing. Those verses are Jesus' words that say people can hear and they can accept or reject. That means they can accept the Gospel or reject the Gospel.

We see that when Peter preached in Acts 10 acceptance and we see rejection of the Gospel when Stephen preached in Acts 7.

Just like Jesus said.

They heard and then chose what they wanted to believe.

 

[Magenta]

I am harmonizing. Those verses are Jesus' words that say people can hear and they can accept or reject. That means they can accept the Gospel or reject the Gospel.

How can you be harmonizing when you overlook ear and heart circumcision. Is not the gospel foolishness to those who are perishing?

I must get to work here; I will be back later

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

How can you be harmonizing when you overlook ear and heart circumcision. Is not the gospel foolishness to those who are perishing?

I must get to work here; I will be back later

Jesus is God.
So everyone else must harmonize to Jesus' words not the other way around.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus is God.
So everyone else must harmonize to Jesus' words not the other way around.

God spoke of both. Do you not believe people can resist the Holy Spirit ,and why do you think they do?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

They can KNOW when they are truly saved, but can be deceived into thinking they are when they are not.

They may not know they are a false convert. Cameron is 100% right here. You asked if someone can " If someone comes forward and says they want to be saved. So we pray together, and they confess they are a sinner in need of Jesus as their Savior and they ask Him to come into their heart, you're saying they are not saved??
The answer is Yes! they can do all that and even think they are sincere when doling so, and NOT be saved. I did. I "felt it in my heart" at an alter call, went up front and repeated the prayer you're talking about, and was told to write down that date, I was saved. Even went a few weeks later to get baptized. I was not saved. So yes you can do what you said and NOT be saved. A prayer does not save us, our "decision" does not save us. ONLY God can save us.

That's why when I was saved, I did none of this. I was deceived into thinking I had already tried that "Christian thing", so when I hit my knees in the repentance God granted me I didn't recite a prayer, nor did I even call out for God or consider Him at all in this moment, when I hit my knees I knew and said 1 thing and 1 thing alone. "I can't do this anymore". I saw myself in all the glory we have in and of ourselves, I saw my self in truth, as powerless and pathetic as I truly was.

Look, I understand what you mean when you say what you're saying, and in theory what you say is sound. I'm not trying to act like what you are saying is wrong and you need to be corrected. I am just trying to share with you that doing that may be how God saves you, and I am in know way trying to suggest that we shouldn't always be trying to point others to the King and true reconciliation with our Creator. I am trying to point out that we can not guarantee people that once they say these certain words they are born again. That's just not true and we have to submit our way to Him completely, and this isn't a small easy thing to teach or do. Only His Spirit can do it and we have to be very mindful of that at all times.

I don't think we disagree... I certainly don't believe that the prayer saves you, it's your belief and trust in God as your Savior. So I wouldn't say it's not that you weren't saved the first time, it's that you didn't have an understanding. You didn't grow as a Christian. At some point you realized there was more than just your initial belief. Now you had to learn to walk in that new path. That is why it is important for a follow up of mature Christians once someone has become saved.

My father has told his conversion story often in concerts. A friend of his invited him to a special night at church. He decided he would go and he said " it was like the preacher was speaking only to me, like he knew my life". At the end of the service they gave an altar call and he got up to leave. He said " I knew I was going the wrong way." He friend stepped out in front of him and simply said what my father was thinking " You know you're going the wrong way"! He went to the altar and he ends with saying " I felt so good I could've whipped Leon Sphinx and Mohammed Ali at the same time". Even as dated as that reference is people seemed to understand it. A few years later he met my mother, he went into music ministry and that is all I have ever know of my father. But he is still friends with that man today even though they live miles apart it's like time never changed. They hug each other and have a deep emotional connection. God used his friend to bring him to the Lord. So it wasn't the prayer but the belief in God that saves.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

God spoke of both. Do you not believe people can resist the Holy Spirit ,and why do you think they do?

Believers resist and grieve the Holy Spirit all of the time.
Sinners reject the Holy Spirit constantly.
Both can even Blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

 

[Magenta]

Believers resist and grieve the Holy Spirit all of the time.
Sinners reject the Holy Spirit constantly.
Both can even Blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Doesn't sound like you have made any distinction between believers and non-believers since "they do it all the time" and "constantly" is pretty much the same thing. But there is a distinction because believers have had their hearts circumcised. Some here have characterized that as God having kidnapped them. Do you agree with their view, or gratefully accept it as the fulfillment of a promise God made?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Doesn't sound like you have made any distinction between believers and non-believers since "they do it all the time" and "constantly" is pretty much the same thing. But there is a distinction because believers have had their hearts circumcised. Some here have characterized that as God having kidnapped them. Do you agree with their view, or gratefully accept it as the fulfillment of a promise God made?

Because I don't follow some doctrine that emphasizes things outside of what Jesus said.

The Thief on the cross said to Jesus, "Remember Me." Jesus replied, "This Day You will be with Me for Eternity."

The Thief demonstrated what Jesus said in John 3:16, "Whosoever Believeth in Jesus has Eternal Life."

It's not a complicated thing, people either will believe or they won't.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Even, when i do this conversation in real life where you save a lot of time in back-and-forth questions to understand someone's point or understanding of a topic, you hit a roadblock when people are caught without an answer to explain why they believe what they believe.
They just mentally block themselves and say "I don't want to talk about this anymore".
My Protestant friend at work, had a lot of mental blocks when i asked him questions about Salvation and i don't blame him because he's a victim of the whole Catholic Church in America syndrome.

Nevermind online via text where it becomes sort of impossible due to the length of time in responses and pages that you have to go through.

Here's where I'm stuck with Calvinism, the idea of infants being elect or created for destruction. Along with that people who are mentally handicapped or for some reason cannot respond to the Gospel. I believe there are people here that believe that an infant can be elect, or not, and that causes a huge issue not just for me, but for the church and how that is perceived. That's where I hold Calvinisms feet to the fire and no one yet has given me a reason to accept this belief as Biblical.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Because I don't follow some doctrine that emphasizes things outside of what Jesus said.

The Thief on the cross said to Jesus, "Remember Me." Jesus replied, "This Day You will be with Me for Eternity."

The Thief demonstrated what Jesus said in John 3:16, "Whosoever Believeth in Jesus has Eternal Life."

It's not a complicated thing, people either will believe or they won't.

Food for thought...

There was a man named Cornelius. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!” Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.

While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”

22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.”

27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile... May I ask why you sent for me?”

....I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all...38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Clearly these people were not so depraved that they could not receive the Gospel. The Bible says they were God fearing people. The Holy Spirit moved on their hearts so that they became saved. Clearly people can respond to the Gospel.

 

[Magenta]

Because I don't follow some doctrine that emphasizes things outside of what Jesus said.

The Thief on the cross said to Jesus, "Remember Me." Jesus replied, "This Day You will be with Me for Eternity."

The Thief demonstrated what Jesus said in John 3:16, "Whosoever Believeth in Jesus has Eternal Life."

It's not a complicated thing, people either will believe or they won't.

I agree that it is not a complicated thing... An uncircumcised heart will not believe the gospel message because it is foolishness to them. The person in possession of an uncircumcised heart is a slave to sin, loves their sin, oppresses the truth in unrighteousness, being guided by worldly wisdom and not Godly wisdom, and does the will of the devil... ALWAYS resisting the Holy Spirit. Plain and simple, it is not the will of the devil that we submit to God and believe the gospel message. Jesus spoke of ear circumcision... Do you think that when Jesus mentioned those with ears to hear, that he was referencing some hitherto unmentioned fact that there are people who have no ears? Or that people who are born physically deaf have no chance of believing because they cannot hear? You keep associating these types of sayings to the physical when they regard matters of comprehension. God spoke of both ear and heart circumcision... heart circumcision was a promise given... do you think He reneged on that promise? Paul calls us the circumcision who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh. Do You think that if God circumcises a person's heart, that he has kidnapped them against their will, as others have said? Those who are uncircumcised in heart and ears are simply spiritually deaf and blind, and cannot understand Spiritual truth. It has been my understanding that you were brought up studying Jewish history and religion, but now it sounds like you may reject anything if Jesus didn't say it, even though it is the understanding of many that all of Scripture is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. PS - I have never heard that rendition of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross before. Mostly I have seen it expressed as Paradise, which some take to mean heaven, even though Jesus did not ascend to the Father in heaven until after His resurrection.

 

[Magenta]

Food for thought...

There was a man named Cornelius. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

Fear of Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Who gives wisdom? Proverbs 2:6 says the Lord gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

 

[selahsays]

They certainly are

But the sheep of Matthew 25 are certainly not. Cannot possibly be.

Jesus addresses them "Come ye blest of MY Father ... " not YOUR Father or even the Father

They did not understand the Christ in you doctrine for they said "when saw we Thee enhungered or thirsty etc?"

But Jesus said "inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least these MY brethren ... " not YOUR brethren or even the brethren

"These My brethren ..." are the church.

We are taught by John that we are passed over from judgement to life so we will not be judged. Paul teaches us that when He comes to judge God will bring us with Him.

Hi, Evmur…I agree with some of the things you’ve written, but I believe that the sheep mentioned in verse 25 of Matthew are indeed the Elect.
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
This separation of the sheep and the goats happens at the time of the seventh trump when Christ returns.
Jesus is speaking to His elect, those who were chosen from the foundation of the world. He is extremely proud of them, letting them know it’s inheritance time.
—Selah

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Fear of Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Who gives wisdom? Proverbs 2:6 says the Lord gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Oh yes, I agree He does. But I think this proves the point that man can respond to God as opposed to total depravity.

 

[Inquisitor]

If God controls every decision that mankind makes then does He not control the mind of serial killers?

Without a shred of doubt.

The young girls that the serial killer kidnaps, rapes, tortures and murders.
While these young girls suffer that agony, begging for mercy and freedom.
The young girls are then, more than likely, sentenced to eternal damnation
after they are murdered.

It makes you want to worship God even more.

 

[HeIsHere]

Without a shred of doubt.

The young girls that the serial killer kidnaps, rapes, tortures and murders.
While these young girls suffer that agony, begging for mercy and freedom.
The young girls are then, more than likely, sentenced to eternal damnation
after they are murdered.

It makes you want to worship God even more.

Not really.