Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Cameron143]

Apples and oranges...besides, I don't use the word trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit works for me.

I'll try another way:
Did God make a covenant with Adam?
Were the covenants God made with Abraham and Noah made to Israel?

 

[John146]

We are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth as we love even
our enemies. I can guarantee that the Christian world is not even close
on any count, let alone understanding the scripture.

Agreed brother

 

[John146]

I'll try another way:
Did God make a covenant with Adam?
Were the covenants God made with Abraham and Noah made to Israel?

No covenant with Adam.

Noah’s covenant was to every living creature.

Abraham’s covenant involved land and a seed that would come from him that would be Israel.

 

[cv5]

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (Gentiles), and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree (Israel)?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Israel

The moment in time when God is done dealing with the Gentiles. God will be done grafting the Gentiles and will graft Israel back in. In the meantime, Israel has been blinded.

Good job buddy. Thanks.

 

[cv5]

No covenant with Adam.

Edenic covenant & Adamic covenant.

 

[Cameron143]

No covenant with Adam.

Noah’s covenant was to every living creature.

Abraham’s covenant involved land and a seed that would come from him that would be Israel.

What is a covenant?
Can God covenant with Himself?
Who is Abraham's seed?

 

[Ruth96]

The reformed position makes a lot of sense biblically even if Mike disagrees . The atonement ,election and God's sovereignty is what every christian has to defend and explain.

 

[cv5]

God created certain angels on a conditional footing for His greater glory which included the fall of Satan and the angels who followed him. Do you think that God was surprised and did not know that this would happen?

Absolute rubbish. What a whopper.

Go ahead and trot out your Hyper-Calvinistic theory of how those Israelites in the wildness that were saved by gazing at the bronze serpent were predestinated to do it.

When in fact they decided to do so and then acted upon that FREE WILL decision.

 

[ZNP]

Now here is a really big domino about to fall

Gold was $1,640 an ounce 10/1/2022

A 50% decrease in purchasing power by the US dollar would be $2,460 an ounce

Today Gold is $2,369 an ounce, hitting $2,438 just this week.

Brad Garrett on Future Finances 05/23/2024

Think of this as a global tug of war over the reserve currency. BRICS is the smaller guy. The US and the West is like 55% and BRICS is 45% so you would superficially think the West wins. But the rise in the cost of Gold and Silver is proof the BRICS team is pulling the US dollar down and slowly to the mud hole. Once the dollar loses 50% of its value relative to the cost of gold then the West team starts falling into the mud hole and you can be sure the slide will happen real fast. Now the Iranian president dying, do you think that will cause the US dollar to slide more? Hmmm.

BTW this is based on an article in Bloomberg news, not exactly sensationalist.

The dominoes keep on falling, China is surrounding Israel, and Ukraine just hit a very important early warning system inside of Russia, part of their nuclear defense. That could not have happened without US help. If the US can strike inside Russia at their strategic military targets then it is game on.

Now I don't think, though I don't know, that China is planning on attacking Taiwan right now. Instead I think the plan is to draw the US Navy away from our border to leave the US open to a surprise attack from Russia, N. Korea, Iran and China. I think this will coordinate with the illegal immigrants who are part of an invading force. I think the US is the target. Russia, China and Iran all need to take out the US to be able to get what they want.

 

[cv5]

Good post here on another thread.....

@Nehemiah6 said:
"29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)"

@John146 said:
Once in Christ through believing the gospel, the believer's future has been determined, "predestined." The believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. This occurs at the future adoption which is the redemption of the body. In the present moment, I am a child of God, but I don't appear to be a child of God. That all will change one day at the redemption, the resurrection and gathering of the body of Christ.

@cv5 said:
Totally agree.

Pre-destined. As in PRE-DESTINATION! Yet future.

 

[cv5]

"Once in Christ through believing the gospel, [THEN] the believer's future has been determined"

 

[PaulThomson]

Who does God foreknow? At what point does God "know" a man?

God foreknows/anticipates someone or something from the time He first imagines them/it until some time after that when he knows them, or from the time he first knows them until some time after that when He is also knowing them.

God knows someone ontologically, when the person begins to exist; relationally, when the person knows God, since relationship is a two way experience..

 

[cv5]

Good post here on another thread.....

@Nehemiah6 said:
"29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)"

@John146 said:
Once in Christ through believing the gospel, the believer's future has been determined, "predestined." The believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. This occurs at the future adoption which is the redemption of the body. In the present moment, I am a child of God, but I don't appear to be a child of God. That all will change one day at the redemption, the resurrection and gathering of the body of Christ.

@cv5 said:
Totally agree.

Pre-destined. As in PRE-DESTINATION! Yet future.

Better yet:

predestined = PRESCRIBED DESTINATION.

And wherever this term is used, it always means the future.....a future that begins when a person believes on the Name of the Son.

 

[maxamir]

Can I be sure please that you do in fact understand your own words. I am not certain that you do. Hence the question.

If you do not understand that because man is spiritually dead he needs Christ then you must be judicially blinded.

 

[maxamir]

I would have to consider it true that faith is a work in order to agree with you, and I cannot do so in good conscience.

if a man can boast in his faith and think that he is the author and finisher of it instead of gift from God then it is a work.

 

[maxamir]

All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us. Big difference. Al scripture is written for our learning, but not all scripture is written for our participation.

All Scripture is given for our application. Please read Psalm 119

 

[maxamir]

You've got that backwards bub....

The NEW is fulfilled from the OLD and therefore the NEW can not truly be understood unless it is looked at through the lens of fulfilment of the OLD

which is why you fail to properly see until you PUT ON of your OLD goggles.

Luk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The New can not be understood without the Old but the Old can not be properly taken into context without looking through the lens of fulfilment which all of the Old was pointing to in Christ who confirmed this in the verse you quoted as well those below.

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

Luk 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

 

[PaulThomson]

Without the Jews YOU could not be saved my friend.

And yet John the Baptist said God could cut off all of Judah and raise up sons of Abraham from His own Levite testicles (stones), Matt.3:9-10. Just as God had threatened to destroy all of the rebellious Israelites and raise up a new nation from Moses, Ex. 32:10.

The Jews were not a necessary link in the Messianic chain. God did sovereignly deigned to use Judah,,both their faithful and their corrupt elements, to produce Messiah and resurrection from the dead to glory. But He could have changed His plan at any stage to a different people.

 

[maxamir]

The KJV has it "the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" ... the question is who fitted them? Nobody starts out a murderer though they may have the propensity for it. We have to learn how to fight, to kill, we need to be trained. We even have to learn how to lie successfully, how to seduce, nobody is born drunk or a drug addict. These be the things that fit us for destruction.

Yes logic demands, that's what I said to you. You are going by human logic. Calvin reluctantly admitted that all logic dictates that if God chose some for to be saved then He must have passed over all others. It's human logic.

It is only true if predestination and election are doctrines that apply per se to salvation. They do not. They apply to our being conformed to the image of the Beloved, God's Son. We all want to be like Jesus, this is a wonderful doctrine for it shows us that it is God's will that we should.

Once again we are chosen in Christ before the world was founded to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace. Again wonderful, we all want to tell of His wonders.

... none of this excludes a single soul from being saved. Indeed we are to be a city set upon a hill, not to exclude but to be a beacon of hope for whoever is weary and sad, in need of shelter. We are the church the city of refuge. THAT'S what we are predestined and chosen for.

Few there be that find the narrow gate but those who do God sends down to the broad way that leads to destruction to pull men off it and lead them to the narrow way as happens in revival. The Great Awakenings.

Now I said these were tricky scriptures that need careful consideration. You mention the Potter and the clay. But there is nothing wrong with the clay when it was created, it was perfectly good for the purpose it was created for. The decisions concerning how to manage, how to fashion the clay comes after the fall [we are speaking about men, not clay]

God is still King, He still has charge of His now fallen creation. He has as Potter to decide how He will make use of His spoiled clay.

Have you ever tried to plumb the depth of evil in man? men like Hitler or Stalin or Mao ze Dong? .... Judas Iscariot? Pharoah? what makes them what they are? In every case it is ambition, greed, greed for power. Those things are not of God, not created by Him or in any way imparted by Him. How and why God chooses these men to be what they become is a deep, deep mystery in God Himself. He only can see what is the heart of every man.

But all these things are God's will in the light of an already fallen creation. Paul speaks about a good and perfect will of God which we are to seek.

Lastly you talk about Elijah's remnant. But with Mt Carmel and the ministries of Elisha and King Jehu the remnant became the whole house of Israel. They kept the covenant alive and in operation.

you say that predestination has nothing to do with salvation when it is the very foundation of salvation in which any are saved and is a denial of the work of the Godhead in the Father choosing His people for salvation, sending His Son to secure that salvation for them and the Holy Spirit seals it unto them forever. To deny this is to deny the Trinity.

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

You fail to understand the true nature of man after the Fall and somehow think that man who is spiritually dead can choose God. God does the choosing because man can not and will not choose the God he knows but hates. You call God King but according to you He is not powerful enough to choose who He wants to save and those He wills to harden who are vessels for dishonour unto wrath prepared for destruction.

Please answer these questions.

Do you believe in Hell?
Did Christ die for those in Hell?
Does God love those He casts into Hell?

 

[maxamir]

So, now you're saying what I've been saying, correct?

God gives men faith in the sense that He gives men the content for their faith = THE FAITH.

But, this is different than God giving men faith so they can believe. Instead it is God giving men THE FAITH so they have what's necessary to believe. IOW, all men have the faculty, but not all men have heard THE FAITH and those who have, either accept it or reject it. And if all men have the faculty, then we have to discuss Total Depravity which I think you said is foundational to the rest of the acronym. And then we have to discuss how Acts re: Lydia applies and whether that event is general to be used of all. And then we have to discuss every section of Scripture the Reformed system thinks proves itself.

It seems easier to drop the systems and read and interpret Scripture in Christ in Spirit. There's too much real estate being used for denominational division. I know you like graphics:

All men are given general revelation and natural law but special revelation which is saving faith is only given by grace to the elect through the ministry of the Gospel who are made willing to accept it (Psalm 110:3).

It seems you do not yet understand the nature of man after the Fall. Please tell me on a scale from one to ten where the words that God spoke describing man in Genesis 6:5 as being "only evil continually" fit?