Thanks for the response.
When you first believed, did you know and understand any of these arguments?
Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"
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Thanks for the response.
When you first believed, did you know and understand any of these arguments?
My upbringing is much different than most considering we are Jews who follow Jesus but from age 6 to 13 attend Mishnah to learn about the Torah/Prophets, Psalms (complete Tanakh). So the idea about God and His Merciful way to His People was easy to converge with Grace. God's Mercy upon humanity led to Grace, the Act of Jesus Sacrifice, goes well hand in hand. So I probably was thinking about many things at a younger age than most Christians growing up. Most children are out playing and being kids and I had to learn to recite the Torah from memory by age 8/9.
I wondered about the Jewish background (probably from your ID). But these days there are a lot of Messianic believers - Jew and Gentile. Thanks for providing the insight.
Honestly, setting aside any difficulties in the conversion, I have many times wished I had your early training.
So, personal background aside, if you can isolate your thoughts, what do you think is important for a new believer to learn. Where would you send one who is not in your locale - into what camp, what system, or however you want to state it? Or would you just tell them to pray for guidance? Or? Messianic? Or did you settle in elsewhere?
Even though I mentioned Provisionism, I really do not adhere to any one specific doctrine. A doctrine centralizes specific verses and as you focus upon them you begin to lose touch with the verses before, after, and what those verses mean in overall context. I would much rather read the Bible and look at it from the paragraph to chapter. This way you are not guilty of making a single verse to your thinking. I am not God so how could a verse from God be how I define it? But in reading the Bible as a whole and seeing who God is it becomes easy to see how any verse should be defined to who God is.
We know God is Love, Merciful, and full of Grace and He gives multiple chances to those who love Him and reject Him. After all, the Bible says it rains equally on both the just and unjust (sinner/saint). So that means each verse we read should fit one of those characteristics that describe God.
If we go by Doctrine, God stops becoming as He claims (the Same yesterday-today-forever) because we begin to format and mold God to the doctrine which is Idolatry. Many doctrines are literally breaking the first Commandment because they're not representing who God is and therefore having another form of god before God.
Acts 17 tells us that everyone created from Adam is the Offspring of God. Some doctrines have God killing His own Offspring to an Eternal Hell for His Glory. But that does not describe the God of Love, Mercy, and Grace at all. And that same doctrine claims to follow 5 doctrines of Grace but their god is killing his own offspring all day long. How can their god be Grace while killing most of his own offspring? They have made a complete mockery of God.
But if you know WHO God is (Love-Mercy-Grace) you will never find yourself distorting the truth about God by having to contort and twist scripture to fit your doctrine.
Can one with no faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ be saved?
According to some, the answer is yes. But I do not really see Scripture teaching that... at all.
Scrpture also says that those who receive Him have the right to be called Children of God. But
to some, if you do anything at all, you have performed a work and nullified the grace of God.
Calvinism is the biblical doctrine of salvation, properly known as the Doctrines of Grace, being a total work of the Godhead in saving sinners chosen by God not because of who they are or anything they have done but solely upon His grace. This doctrine was not unique to Calvin and was found in Augustine before him and was the bedrock of the Reformation.
About a hundred years afterwards, some rose up to question this doctrine, they were followers of Arminius and were called Arminians. Their doctrine was tested at the Synod of Dordt with five questions and found to be the same heresy as the Pelagians who did not understand the true nature of man after the Fall.
The answers to their five questions were addressed as five answers which is commonly called the five points of Calvinism today, listed with biblical verse proofs below.
Sadly, the majority who call themselves Christians today side with the man-centred doctrine of the Arminians who rob God of the glory of His salvation and give it to the supposed free will and choice of men.
Both repentance and faith are fruits of and conditions of salvation but not conditions unto salvation. God has chosen to use the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant the gift of faith to His people which is the instrument through which they are made righteous before Him and not of anything a person does lest they have something in which to boast before God (1 Cor 1:27-29).
No one is justified by faith in and of itself but by grace through faith in the blood of Christ (Romans 3-5). There are many who believe such as the demons do and are not saved. Faith is not simply a head knowledge or mental assent of certain truths but a complete trust in the person and work of Christ that springs forth from a heart that has been regenerated by grace (Eph 2:8-9).
Those who consistently have faith in their faith rather than a God given faith in the person and wok of Christ are not yet saved and are still under the curse below.
Jer 17:5 Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.
Christ said that it was impossible for men to do anything to be saved (Mar 10:26-27) and therefore the only hope of man is not to look inside of themselves for an impossible righteousness but outside of themselves to Him alone who can make all things possible by grace to them who cry out to Him to give them a new heart to be able to obey His just command given to all to repent and believe on Christ alone.
And I thought I was the only one that had trouble communicating my logic. Do you mean to say that, "Those who consistently deny Calvinism are not yet saved and are still under the curse below?
Sounds like you are saying faith is a condition of salvation and faith is not a condition of salvation.
Demons do not have faith in God. Honestly, people ought not to say such foolish things.
If they had faith in God they most likely would not have rebelled in the first place.
Believing God exists and having faith in Him are two completely different things.
You said, "there is not one verse that speaks of believing the Gospel - believing that Jesus is the Christ - that does not include this concept of also obeying it - obeying Him".
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
See there are many verses that proclaim that belief (faith) in Christ alone.
Your positional salvation in Christ was implemented through grace, not by your works.
Salvation is a gift and so is your righteousness, gifts given to you.
Of course, your expected to be obedient to His command to love others.
Your good works are accomplished through you by the Holy Spirit.
Your not the one doing the heavy lifting.
The glory belongs to Christ alone.
Do you believe that you need to be saved?
Before one can be saved they need to understand they both need to be saved + cannot save them self.
Which leads to the all important question, Who can save us?
The Bible shows us only Jesus can save us.
With knowing just this much, it's as easy as Praying to Jesus and asking Him to save you and fill you with the Holy Spirit because you understand that you are a sinner who is unable to save ourselves.
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NEWTOCHRISTIANITY
Guest
Paul told us the elect, the chosen people (the Jews), were grafted out. (Romans 11)
Those that never knew God were grafted in, these then became the elect. (Romans 11)
Then Paul warned the Gentiles, the newly elect, chosen people of God, below.
Romans 10:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Would you now propose that the Gentiles, the elect, cannot be grafted out?
That would be a direct contradiction of chapter 11 of the letter to the Romans.
Tell me your not saying what I think your saying.
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NEWTOCHRISTIANITY
Guest
maxamir apparently characterizes not being Calvinist as "Those who consistently have faith in their faith rather than a God given faith in the person and wok of Christ"
but it seems a better characterization would be "those who place their faith in the person and work of Christ". this is how Calvinism couches limited atonement. The claim is that no one can have faith unless God wills it. Yet scripture says that God is not willing that anyone should perish, so it would follow that if anyone does perish, it is not God's will. In my view, unbelief is disobeying God's commandment to believe in Christ which is believing in the God as Father because that is Who Jesus revealed as God to the world. So, in my view, "unless the Father draws you," means that we come to the Father (not just "God") through the Son, by the Spirit, hence Salvation, by Grace through Faith. That is, the means to God is through God, by God, and we've only to believe and trust that as true.
but it seems a better characterization would be "those who place their faith in the person and work of Christ". this is how Calvinism couches limited atonement. The claim is that no one can have faith unless God wills it. Yet scripture says that God is not willing that anyone should perish, so it would follow that if anyone does perish, it is not God's will. In my view, unbelief is disobeying God's commandment to believe in Christ which is believing in the God as Father because that is Who Jesus revealed as God to the world. So, in my view, "unless the Father draws you," means that we come to the Father (not just "God") through the Son, by the Spirit, hence Salvation, by Grace through Faith. That is, the means to God is through God, by God, and we've only to believe and trust that as true.
I am not a Calvinist and I know that if I were to die this moment I would go to Heaven where God is at because I am saved.