Mid-trib

[preston39]

Matt 16:16-19 And Simon Peter answered and said, thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

That this includes all of the body of Christ and not just Peter is seen in Matt 18:18,19 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye bind upon the earth shall be bound in heaven. And whatsoever ye loose upon the earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

See also Lu 10:17-20 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold I give you power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject to you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Now regarding the evil one's revealing of himself to the world, we see in 2 Thes 2: 3-8 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

So it is the faithful that have authority over all the power of the enemy and who hinder the evil one from revealing himself to the world in the abomination of desolation at the middle of the great tribulation. Then after being caught up in the air, the church will be taken out of the evil one's way; and then he will reveal himself.

And btw; When the burning mountain impacts with the earth and takes 1/3 of the people, and 1/3 of the ships, and pollutes 1/3 of the rivers; it will not be from the King of the North(Russia), nor from the King of the South(North Africa), nor from the King of the East(China), and neither from the King of the West(Europe)...

Maranatha!!!

g...,
I see nothing in your offerings which supports ...mid-trib.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Holy Spirit is for the Church Age. Once the Church is taken up, so is the Holy Spirit. Also there is a limit to the number of Gentiles who will enter into the Church -- the Body of Christ. This is called "the fulness of the Gentiles in Rom 11:25.

This is one of the bizarre contradictions of dispensationalism. The holy spirit is removed from the earth, yet the 144,000 Jewish evangelists preach the gospel to Israel, who somehow believes the truth without the spirit of truth that convicts the world of sin and reveals Christ to the unsaved.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is one of the bizarre contradictions of dispensationalism. The holy spirit is removed from the earth, yet the 144,000 Jewish evangelists preach the gospel to Israel, who somehow believes the truth without the spirit of truth that convicts the world of sin and reveals Christ to the unsaved.

Nothing bizarre about this at all. Indeed it is exactly what Scripture says. As to your objections, please answer the following questions:

1. Were people being saved from Abel to the thief on the cross BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost? YES OR NO.

2. Is there even the slightest hint in Revelation that the 144,000 Jews are "evangelists"? YES OR NO

Unless the Holy Spirit and the Church (the redeemed of the Lord) are TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, the Antichrist and Satan cannot possibly take TOTAL control of this earth's inhabitants. Please read and study Revelation 13. The saints mentioned there are the Tribulation Saints.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Where does the Holy Spirit go when He is "supposedly" taken out of the way?

The Holy Spirit (who came from Heaven), and the Church go to Heaven.

You will not find either of them mentioned from Revelation 8 through 18, other than the Spirit speaking from Heaven.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. (Rev 14:13).

 

[MattforJesus]

The "Restrainer" is masculine, that is because it is a man.

That man was known as John of Giscala or John Levi. He led the revolt against Rome. The War lasted 7 years, 66-73 CE, and which halfway through the revolt, the Temple, and the City was destroyed. 3 1/2 years into the war. There is your so-called midtrib. John Levi was the person that people today refer to as AntiChrist.

If one actually studied this event, you will see that this is what the bible was referring to.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time(three and one half years).
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

After the antichrist reigns who comes from the ten horns and persecutes the Christians for three and one half years, the saints take over the earth at that time, but that did not happen, for the heathen still rule on earth.

Also the ten horn kingdom shall devour the whole earth, tread it down, and break it in pieces, which I am sure, without a doubt, that if the antichrist were in the first century he could not devour the whole world, and have control over the whole earth, for without advanced technology, and advanced travel like today it is impossible.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The antichrist has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, which could of not happened back in the first century.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God has to end this sin business on earth one day, for He is not going to allow the world to keep going on sinning forever, but God is love and will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him, so is is giving the world 7 years to have their way, and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, then He will put them down.

That is the purpose of the antichrist to deceive all who dwell on earth who do not love God so that God can put them down, which has to be on a world wide level, which is why it could of not happened in the first century.

As long as one nation acknowledges a higher power there is hope for the world, and as long as one nation allows the Gospel to be preached there is hope for the world, and God would not put the world down, but the beast kingdom took away the hope of the world by all nations together as one and religion is about evolution, and people can still evolve to be greater, and believe the antichrist will cause them to evolve to be greater, so it is over.

The antichrist could not of been in the first century for it is the wrong time frame for the purpose that God has for the antichrist, which he allows Satan to deceive the world by the man of sin, and the last three and one half years the restrain will be off Satan, and he will be off his leash, and the wicked will be as wicked as they want to be, which has not happened prior to that time for God is keeping things from getting too out of hand right now, but it will be crazy during the last 7 years of mankind having dominion on earth.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Nothing bizarre about this at all. Indeed it is exactly what Scripture says. As to your objections, please answer the following questions:

1. Were people being saved from Abel to the thief on the cross BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost? YES OR NO.

2. Is there even the slightest hint in Revelation that the 144,000 Jews are "evangelists"? YES OR NO

Unless the Holy Spirit and the Church (the redeemed of the Lord) are TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, the Antichrist and Satan cannot possibly take TOTAL control of this earth's inhabitants. Please read and study Revelation 13. The saints mentioned there are the Tribulation Saints.

1. The holy spirit has never left the earth since it was formed.

2. The 144,000 evangelists is just what I've heard dispensationalists call them. Call them what you want. The name is irrelevant

Can you answer how anyone can be saved without the holy spirit?

 

[shrume]

1. The holy spirit has never left the earth since it was formed.

John 7:
39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Can you answer how anyone can be saved without the holy spirit?

People were saved before the holy spirit was given, there will be people saved after we're outa here, during the trib.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

John 7:
39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

People were saved before the holy spirit was given, there will be people saved after we're outa here, during the trib.

I guess you've never done a study on how the holy spirit has in the earth during the OT. I don't feel like doing it for you, but a hint is "eyes of the lord" and "seven eyes"

No one is saved apart from the holy spirit.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I guess you've never done a study on how the holy spirit has in the earth during the OT. I don't feel like doing it for you, but a hint is "eyes of the lord" and "seven eyes"

No one is saved apart from the holy spirit.

Also there's David begging GOD to not take the holy spirit away from him.

 

[preston39]

1. The holy spirit has never left the earth since it was formed.

2. The 144,000 evangelists is just what I've heard dispensationalists call them. Call them what you want. The name is irrelevant

Can you answer how anyone can be saved without the holy spirit?

H...,

How?...because The Bible says so.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

H...,

How?...because The Bible says so.

Where?

 

[preston39]

Timed out...post 30 cont'd

We repent because Christ gave His life on the cross for us. We then must be baptized. That is required in order for us to receive the Holy Spirit.
So, the Holy Spirit does not play a part in our preparation to receive Him.......The Comforter.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Timed out...post 30 cont'd

We repent because Christ gave His life on the cross for us. We then must be baptized. That is required in order for us to receive the Holy Spirit.
So, the Holy Spirit does not play a part in our preparation to receive Him.......The Comforter.

That's what's required to receive circumcision of the heart in which the holy spirit takes up permanent residence. Before that the spirit can and does speak to people in their hearts. John 6:44-45 says that all who learn of the father come to Christ. The only way to learn of the father before coming to Christ is by the holy spirit. So the holy spirit speaks to all and always has - "The eyes of the lord run to and fro throughout the earth to show himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is perfect towards him."

 

[preston39]

Where?

H...,

Several ways and places;.....here is an example........

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Please show scripture supporting your view that The Holy Spirit must be present for repentance? The above in your post 33 does not.

 

[shrume]

I guess you've never done a study on how the holy spirit has in the earth during the OT. I don't feel like doing it for you, but a hint is "eyes of the lord" and "seven eyes"

You shouldn't guess.

No one is saved apart from the holy spirit.

There were many, many people in the OT who will be saved that did not have the Holy Spirit on them.

And what do you do with this? Ignore it?

John 7:
39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

And if you don't ignore it, I'm curious how you explain it.

 

[shrume]

Also there's David begging GOD to not take the holy spirit away from him.

Yes. David had the Holy Spirit. Many, maybe even most, OT believers did not.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Now regarding the evil one's revealing of himself to the world, we see in 2 Thes 2: 3-8 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And herein lies the error. Let's look at the scripture:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Paul starts of with "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, then in verse 2 he refers to "the day of the Lord, which is the time of God's wrath. The "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, takes place prior to the day of the Lord of the Lord. Therefore, Paul is saying that "the day of the Lord" will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, not the gathering of the church. Therefore, the chronological order of events is:

* The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (rapture)

* The day of the Lord = apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness, the time of God's wrath

This is supported by the scripture which follow:

"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The One who is holding back the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness, is the Holy Spirit indwelling the body of Christ, the church. When the One who is holding him back is taken out of the way, so also is the church taken out of the way.

The "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" is closely linked with "the day of the Lord" in that our being gathered is what initiates the day of the Lord and the revealing of the man of lawlessness.

So it is the faithful that have authority over all the power of the enemy and who hinder the evil one from revealing himself to the world in the abomination of desolation at the middle of the great tribulation. Then after being caught up in the air, the church will be taken out of the evil one's way; and then he will reveal himself.

The problem with the mid-trib gathering of the church is same as with the post-trib belief, which is that over half of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will have already taken place by the middle of the seven years, which would mean that the living church would be put through the majority of God's wrath. Regarding this, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from God's wrath and the Lord said that He would keep us out of that hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10), ergo, the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which by the way, is symbolic representing the antichrist.

And btw; When the burning mountain impacts with the earth and takes 1/3 of the people, and 1/3 of the ships, and pollutes 1/3 of the rivers;

In your post above, you have combined the results of the different trumpet judgments:

Second trumpet = a third of the creatures in the sea die and third of the ships are destroyed

Third Trumpet = a third of the rivers and fresh water are contaminated so that many people die from drinking the waters

Fifth trumpet = A third of the inhabitants of the earth killed by those four angels and their demonic army

J

 

[tanakh]

Interesting discussion. The Restrainer is not named. Could it be Michael the archangel? He restrained the prince of Persia in Daniel 10. ("No, it can't be Michael because the JW's think he is Jesus" could be a hidden bias.) Also Revelation 12 may support the Michael theory. No, I am not a JW. Daniel's lord is not Michael. I think Daniel's lord is Jesus even though he fought the Prince of Persia to a draw. Remember Israel was exiled at that time. What happens in heaven, happens on earth. Counter argument, Daniel's lord could not be Jesus because Jesus is God and God has power over the prince of Persia.

I believe it is Michael. He is the Angel that protects Israel. The only reason some believe it is the holy Spirit is that it ties in with their
version of end time events. Paul doesn't identify the restrainer. In any case if he left with the Church according to this version of events
there are still people being saved right up to the end. So how can they be saved or witness without the Holy Spirit being present.

 

[jb]

The Holy Spirit (who came from Heaven), and the Church go to Heaven.

You will not find either of them mentioned from Revelation 8 through 18, other than the Spirit speaking from Heaven.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. (Rev 14:13).

This is just YOUR interpretation of 2Thess 2v7, "...He is taken out of the way."

Acts 2v16-21,38,39 clearly teaches that God The Holy Spirit is upon earth throughout the whole of the Age of Grace right up until the Second Coming of Christ working through the ministries of the Church and His spiritual gifts. Eph 4v7-16, 1Cor 12v7-11.

Rev 7v9,10,14 also confirms this by teaching that a great multitude that no man could number (from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues) come "out of" the Great Tribulation and washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb. You have to be "in" the Great Tribulation to be able to come "out of" the Great Tribulation!

How can a great multitude be saved, kept and protected upon earth without the Holy Spirit? John 16v8-11.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is one of the bizarre contradictions of dispensationalism. The holy spirit is removed from the earth, yet the 144,000 Jewish evangelists preach the gospel to Israel, who somehow believes the truth without the spirit of truth that convicts the world of sin and reveals Christ to the unsaved.

just for the sake of true understanding. This belief is a small small portion of those who believe in dispensationalism most do not believe this, this as anyone in the room who reads can see)

I believe it is there HS's influence in the church who is on earth that is removed.) We have two witnesses performing miracles before they are killed and left for dead for three days then resurrected. If The HS worked through Jesus for all his piracles. and raised him from the dead. Then the HS has to be operative in these men also.

sadly, some people want to try to put a doctrinal group of people under what a few believe in order to counter that doctrine, when it is not ev en a mainstreem doctrinal belief of the people they are attacking.