Loss of salvation???

[Wansvic]

Good question, and thanks for that.

On a more surface representation for meaning rather than getting into a deep and lengthy theological discussion:

The simplest meaning is that we live OUTWARDLY toward others our resulting salvation obtained by grace through faith, and do so in fear and trembling.

Why?

Simply stated, it's because we continue to sin, never having left it behind entirely. That taint is reason for us to fear misleading others by how we live our lives in Christ before them. This is serious stuff that more people should take more seriously. Therein is the foundation undergirding the revelation of the one in Heaven whose work that he built with hay, wood and stubble that burned in the fires of testing, he still suffered in Heaven that loss, which is far more terrible than most people here in this life on this earth imagine.

So, we build before and within others what will be tested in the fire of God's word and His Righteousness, and is therefore cause for our fear and trembling here and now.

That should cause more people to pause before continuing to parrot the Kingdom Gospel under this dispensation of the Gospel of Grace given that grace and works simply don't mix in relation to salvation

Does that help?

MM

No your post did not help. I asked the question in hopes you might ponder the scripture and receive revelation.

You may, however, receive enlightenment if you're willing to read Post 7414 with an open mind. May God Bless.

 

[Wansvic]

Thanks. I think this to be a very important section of Scripture that too many want to mess with.

I'd add re: 'fear and trembling' in paraphrase 'don't get at cross purposes with what God is commanded we cooperatively work at with Him - what He is at work doing in us.

Yes. I do undertand that.

 

[Toknow]

It's sad that your concept of salvation is so shallow. To be born again is to have a new nature, to be a new person and that new person does not want to sin. How? Because the sin nature is removed through the cross of Christ. It is dead an buried. Christians still have the capacity to sin and often are bound by sins until they learn how to be free. But I've never met a born again believer who thinks its acceptable to live a sinful lifestyle.

A bird flies because it is a bird, not because it follows a flight manual, straps on an engine and tries to take off. Christians have the new nature that is of God and Lord Jesus lives in us to motivate and empower us to live as pleases God. When the believer realises that there is nothing left for him/her to do but rejoice in the great salvation Jesus bought for us, our lives will be transformed.

Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Yesterday, I had to drive somewhere with my wife. I had no reason to do so, but I took a different route to our destination. I also went back a different way. As I was turning into the main road, I saw emergency vehicles and heavy traffic at the intersection I'd normally have used. Maybe I would have been in the accident if I'd gone that way or we might have witnessed something traumatic. For sure on the way back we dodged the accident scene. It is often in the simple things that God leads. I could not find a Bible verse to tell me what to do. I needed the inner voice of the Spirit to lead me. it's the only way to live.

Talk is cheap Gideon.

How about posting some scripture instead of your OPINION?

What I'm hearing right now is that:

1. Obedience is nice,,,but not really necessary.
2. No difference between justification and sanctification.
3. Jesus has done it all...nothing is required of us.

If you care to address the above,,,please use the NT which you claim to understand.

 

[mailmandan]

You are one confused dude Dan.

THIS is what you stated in post no. 7376...which is NOT what you stated when I gave you the emoji.

"Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6) No supplements needed. "

Read carefully:
You're stating that Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient .....[ALL THAT IS NECESSARY] for BELIEVERS.
NO SUPPLEMENT NECESSARY.

This is wrong and is not taught in the NT.

It's wrong because it's speaking about BELIEVERS.

What you're saying is that BELIEVERS need do nothing because of Christ's finished work on the cross.

Could you post some scripture that states this??
Maybe 2 or 3 verses that clearly spell out what you've just stated?

The NT teaches that we are to do good works.
Christ's work gets us saved....

but then we are to obey Him to remain saved.

Acts 5:32
32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

1 Peter 1:14
14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,

1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Obedience includes doing good works

Matthew 5:16
16In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

1 John 3:18
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Titus 3:8
8The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Salvation can be lost - all the writers warn us

Colossians 1:22-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior.

22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God

2 Timothy 4:7
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

You have not posted the correct meaning of SANCTIFICATION.

Thus the confusion you cause.

Please post some verses that prove that we are not required to obey God or do good works
AFTER we are saved.

You will NOT find any such scripture because it does not exist.

So here you state that we are sanctified ONE TIME?

Now you state it is ONGOING?

Which is it?

You posted 1 Thes 4:3-4
It states that we are to abstain from immoratlity and know how to possess our own vessel.

Sounds like your dreaded salvation by works type 2 to me.

You know someone that lives a 100% perfect life?
NO.

So what you're saying is that even if we sin...
no big deal...

You said:

OUR SANCTIFICATION HAS NO BEARING ON OUR JUSTIFICATION.

Sir,,,it most certainly does.

If sanctificaiton is the evidence of salvation...
then
no sanctification = no salvation

YOU are the one always saying that our good works are EVIDENCE.

What confusion!

Please post where I stated this nonsensical declaration which YOU have made
not ME.

You have confused the meaning of salvation.
You have made of all the hay one batch.
Your theology is a total confusion.
Words mean nothing to you...you define them wrongly.

We contribute to our salvation:

Mark 16:20 Jesus works WITH the disciples,,,as He works with us.
20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

1 Corinthians 12:25-26 We are in one body....so as to be of help to each other....God does not do it all....
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.
26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

1 Corinthians 16:13
13 Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. 14 Do everything in love.

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

It's you who remains confused and enough with the carpet bombing. Your arguments culminate in salvation by faith AND WORKS no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it. Your arguments on justification and sanctification, align with Roman Catholicism.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

NKJ John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship bow in obeisance in spirit and truth."

You completely changing scripture is way sadder than me asking someone why we must. You literally crossed out a word and changed it to another word. You also added another word that you didn’t spell correctly. And the fact that two likes your change in scripture says a lot. Here’s the correct version of what you posted.

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.””
‭‭John‬ ‭4‬:‭24‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Toknow]

You love that word MUST.
Why MUST we obey God?

Yes sir.
I do like the word MUST.
God doen't request.
He commands.


MUST is a good word.
Not like those wishy washy words like: we obey because we WANT to.


We may WANT to...
but we also MUST.

It's unfortunate that not every believer on this board likes that word.


So to answer your question:
WHY MUST we obey God?

An interesting question, I must say.




Because He died for you.
Because He's God, your creator, and Adam paid fully for having disobeyed Him.
Because He was merciful enough to create a plan for our escape
Because that plan requires obedience...
IF Jesus was right.

Jesus said we must obey Him.
Do you really need verses????

 

[Musicmaster]

No your post did not help. I asked the question in hopes you might ponder the scripture and receive revelation.

You may, however, receive enlightenment if you're willing to read Post 7414 with an open mind. May God Bless.

I didn't read that one because it doesn't show on my screen.

MM

 

[Toknow]

It's you who remains confused and enough with the carpet bombing. Your arguments culminate in salvation by faith AND WORKS no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it. Your arguments on justification and sanctification, align with Roman Catholicism.

Dan...

See, you're a total confusion !!

You think I'm trying to SUGAR COAT my words!!!!

Sir,,,
I'm trying to take the sugar YOU put on the words of YOUR SAVIOR so that they are crystal clear.


YOU call it carpet bombing...
I call it supporting my statements.


Please post some verses that state that we are NOT to obey Jesus..
that we are NOT to ACT ON HIS WORDS...

or

that we could DISOBEY God,,
and STILL be saved.

Thanks.

 

[Toknow]

I didn't read that one because it doesn't show on my screen.

MM

Oh.

I LOVE systematic studies.
Everyone who systematically studies gets farther and farther away from scripture.

And that seems to be a good thing...
No need to listen/hear what Christ has to say about anything.
No need to really obey Him....
we're good even if we don't obey.

Why take the NT as a complete thought?

 

[Toknow]

Wow. You pop-Christianity people stuck in Western thinking, which is filled with falsehoods, you still can't seem to get it that the majority of the four gospels are not NT. Why do you people continue to vomit that fallible misrepresentation? Continuing the same old worn out argument about "working out" as if that equates to working FOR, this nonsense will be with us for a long time.

So, you can certainly continue being accursed by way of the OTHER gospel you preach, but as for those of us who accept scripture for what it says rather than to stay in line with such religions as Roman Catholicism, Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, all of whom also teach works-based salvation, good luck with that because you are not at all in line with what's written for us today. Cherry-picking from the OT what was meant for those who were under the Law and/or under the Kingdom Gospel, that's legalism, pure and simple, the preachers of which Paul stated are those who are accursed.

MM

There's only ONE GOSPEL Mr. Musicmaker.

How many notes are there MM?

Really?
No.

I say there are about 20 or so.
Yes sir.
That's what I THINK.

 

[Musicmaster]

Oh.

I LOVE systematic studies.
Everyone who systematically studies gets farther and farther away from scripture.

As opposed to what...out-of-context citations ripped from their contexts and therefore more easily twisted to support one's own dogmas?

No thanks.

MM

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

For one, I said nothing about you going to hell. Two, please quote one time where I’ve told people not to obey God.

Obeying His commandments is an action. We both want to obey Him. I’m talking about the reason behind the obedience. He doesn’t just look at our actions. He looks at our heart. What is the intention behind the obedience?

““If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭15 ESV

Some people read the Bible as a rule book as to how to get to heaven. I however read it as a love letter from a God that loves us so much He completed the ultimate sacrifice so that we could spend eternity with Him starting now, not later.

If you love God and obey Him, you wouldn't be talking out the side of your mouth tryng to tell people who obey God that they're doing so for the wrong reasons. You should be rejoicing that they are pleasing the Lord and encourage them to continue to do so.

Anyway, to everyone else who wants to be genuinely saved, Jesus .MUST be your Lord and Savior. He can't be just your Savior. He akso MUST be your Lotd. That's why we obey Him. He is our LORD and Savior.

Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

This verse links salvation directly to confessing Jesus as Lord—not just Savior.


Luke 2:11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Christ, the Lord.

The title "Christ the Lord" combines both identities—Savior and Lord—right from the beginning.


Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Savior!"

The apostle Peter proclaims Jesus as both Lord and Messiah (Savior)—not one without the other.


Philippians 2:11 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

This universal confession affirms His Lordship as essential to Christian belief.


1 Corinthians 12:3 "No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit."

This indicates that true faith in Christ includes the acknowledgment of His authority over one’s life.


🕊

 

[Toknow]

“To be saved”=self preservation.

So essentially you are following His commandments out of selfishness instead of love.

You want to follow Him so you’ll be saved. I want to follow Him because I love Him.

Just,

Are you NOT SAVED???

Is THIS the explanation of why you don't beleive in obeying Jesus?

Hmmmm.

Maybe Jesus wil "love" you for not obeying Him...
and then He won't even save you???

You DO bring up a good point!
Thanks!

 

[Musicmaster]

There's only ONE GOSPEL Mr. Musicmaker.

How many notes are there MM?

Really?
No.

I say there are about 20 or so.
Yes sir.
That's what I THINK.

If pointing at Christ Himself, yes. However, the elemental content of the gospels within their respective dispensations, the differences are more striking than you give credence.

MM

 

[Toknow]

As opposed to what...out-of-context citations ripped from their contexts and therefore more easily twisted to support one's own dogmas?

No thanks.

MM

As opposed to THIS MM:



John 14:15
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


See.
Easy.
No systematics needed !

 

[Toknow]

If pointing at Christ Himself, yes. However, the elemental content of the gospels within their respective dispensations, the differences are more striking than you give credence.

MM

What's the difference in the verse I just posted?

Who is it for?
Which dispensation?
Is it for the Jews or for Christians?

 

[Toknow]

If you love God and obey Him, you wouldn't be talking out the side of your mouth tryng to tell people who obey God that they're doing so for the wrong reasons. You should be rejoicing that they are pleasing the Lord and encourage them to continue to do so.

Anyway, to everyone else who wants to be genuinely saved, Jesus .MUST be your Lord and Savior. He can't be just your Savior. He akso MUST be your Lotd. That's why we obey Him. He is our LORD and Savior.

Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

This verse links salvation directly to confessing Jesus as Lord—not just Savior.


Luke 2:11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Christ, the Lord.

The title "Christ the Lord" combines both identities—Savior and Lord—right from the beginning.


Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Savior!"

The apostle Peter proclaims Jesus as both Lord and Messiah (Savior)—not one without the other.


Philippians 2:11 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

This universal confession affirms His Lordship as essential to Christian belief.


1 Corinthians 12:3 "No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit."

This indicates that true faith in Christ includes the acknowledgment of His authority over one’s life.


🕊

Amen to that!
Well said.

Great post.

 

[Toknow]

No your post did not help. I asked the question in hopes you might ponder the scripture and receive revelation.

You may, however, receive enlightenment if you're willing to read Post 7414 with an open mind. May God Bless.

Yes.
I try to use the question tactic.
Doesn't work.
They think you're really asking .....

 

[mailmandan]

Dan...

See, you're a total confusion !!

You think I'm trying to SUGAR COAT my words!!!!

Sir,,,
I'm trying to take the sugar YOU put on the words of YOUR SAVIOR so that they are crystal clear.

YOU call it carpet bombing...
I call it supporting my statements.

Please post some verses that state that we are NOT to obey Jesus..
that we are NOT to ACT ON HIS WORDS...

or

that we could DISOBEY God,,
and STILL be saved.

Thanks.

I NEVER said we are NOT to obey Jesus or that we are NOT to act on His words. Your straw man arguments resemble slander, which is sin and not obedience. (Ephesians 4:31) Children of God practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10) Children of the devil are the sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 2:2, 5:6) which refers to people whose lives are characterized by disobedience. This describes individuals who are outside of Christ, spiritually dead in their sins.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Yes sir.
I do like the word MUST.
God doen't request.
He commands.


MUST is a good word.
Not like those wishy washy words like: we obey because we WANT to.


We may WANT to...
but we also MUST.

It's unfortunate that not every believer on this board likes that word.


So to answer your question:
WHY MUST we obey God?

An interesting question, I must say.




Because He died for you.
Because He's God, your creator, and Adam paid fully for having disobeyed Him.
Because He was merciful enough to create a plan for our escape
Because that plan requires obedience...
IF Jesus was right.

Jesus said we must obey Him.
Do you really need verses????

I’d love to see the verse where Jesus literally says we must obey Him, because I’ve never come across one.

That said, I agree obedience is essential. I see it this way. Just as faith is the root of good works, love is the root of obedience. How do we know we have faith? Our desire to do good. How do we know we love Him? Our desire to obey Him.

Obedience isn’t only about duty or fear of punishment. Its a natural joyful response. Love is the root. Obedience is the fruit.

The requirements are faith and love. All else comes naturally from those.