We had a messianic Jew come to speak with us a few times.........The most arrogant believer I have ever met.
Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What made him arrogant? Is it because he stated what scripture actually says as opposed to the Westernized corruptions that dominate so much of pop Christianity today within churchianity?
I was once a Messianic Jew but walked away from it because of their many adherences to Torah, which simply wasn't for me. I even looked into the Hebrew Roots movement and their beliefs, and RAN from that. I had never seen so much of a playground of Gentile adult kiddies pretending to be what they aren't and should never even try to be. The "Jewish roots" concept is imbalanced in many ways.
So, did you re-read what scripture actually says about Israel's blindness? Was I wrong?
What about the "bride" thing. Did scripture speak to you of correction on that as well, or are you still in disagreement on that too?
MM
Don't mean to be rude, I'm jumping ins also all in LOVE we all need to be humble.
Paul never prached on the need for being baptrized in JESUS name is 100% correct.
Matter a fact Paul never tells anyone how to be saved after Acts 19.
Why? Beause Pauls letters were to church leaders, NOT TO THE UNSAVED.
Eternity is a long time, we better make sure we are following JESUS and HIS word, going down the straight and narrow path.
Do we jump over the book of Acts because it's a transitional book as so so many claim, ignoring it and go right to Paul’s letters? Or, accept the book of Acts because it is the FOUNDATION and not a transitional book?
The foundation of the book of Acts is believe in JESUS, repent, water baptism in JESUS name and need to receive the Holy Ghost to be reborn. Acts 2:38.
Following the same path that JESUS and HIS disciple took along with Paul before he started his ministry.
OR, is the book of Acts a transitional book and we are saved by grace and or faith ALONE?
Below you will see GOD'S words not anyone's opinion or personal interpretation of HIS word.
Why didn't Paul mention the need to be water baptized or receive the Holy Ghost to be saved?
Many do not understand and the outcome is going to be devastating.
After the book of Acts in Paul's letters he was giving instructions about how to live, what to do as Christians to reach the lost, what happens in water baptism, and things about the Holy Ghost. Off the milk and on the MEAT.
Through Paul’s travels he heard different problems in the churches and was addressing the problems in each of his letters.
His letters included both CORRECTION and PRAISE.
If you were there to hear the instructions Paul gave that birthed churches it would be the same message as the rest of JESUS disciples. See Acts 19 it shows what Paul told the people to do.
Paul did NOT have his own gospel. Notice how he introduces himself PAUL AN APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST.
Look who the letters are addressed to,
1 Corinthians,
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
2 Corinthians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Romans,
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians,
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Ephesians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Philippians,
1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Colossians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians,
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians,
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
All letters after the book of Thessalonians had nothing to with Paul’s ministry to churches.
Back to Paul
Proof Paul followed JESUS along with the rest of JESUS disciples is seen in what happened in the beginning stages of when he started the church of Ephesus Acts 19. For some reason Paul questioned whether the 12 disciples had the Holy Ghost yet. He found out the men did not know what happened at Pentecost. He told them about JESUS and they got baptized. And after Paul laid hands on them they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19,
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
After Paul baptized those folk, and they received the Holy Ghost he stayed there for 2-3 years building the church of Jews and Gentiles.
If anyone debates Paul preached a different message, it's HIS word your debating not with me.
I bet there will be a lot of people who share Paul's letters trying to prove Paul said we are saved by grace or faith alone using Paul letters and debate HIS word.
BEFORE you do, read from the top with an open heart and look , Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ and each and every letter is to a church, not the unsaved.
We CAN'T debate HIS word, it says what it say and means what it means.
No idea why you would say that? Maybe he was?
GOD doen't what anyone arrogant, we all have to be humble.
If you think Paul prached a different message check this out.
After the book of Acts most of scripture was Pauls letters to the leaders to churchs NOT THE UNSAVED.
Eternity is a long time, we better make sure we are following JESUS and HIS word, going down the straight and narrow path.
Do we jump over the book of Acts because it's a transitional book as so so many claim, ignoring it and go right to Paul’s letters? Or, accept the book of Acts because it is the FOUNDATION and not a transitional book?
The foundation of the book of Acts is believe in JESUS, repent, water baptism in JESUS name and need to receive the Holy Ghost to be reborn. Acts 2:38.
Following the same path that JESUS and HIS disciple took along with Paul before he started his ministry.
OR, is the book of Acts a transitional book and we are saved by grace and or faith ALONE?
Below you will see GOD'S words not anyone's opinion or personal interpretation of HIS word.
Why didn't Paul mention the need to be water baptized or receive the Holy Ghost to be saved?
Many do not understand and the outcome is going to be devastating.
Nowhere after the book of Acts will you see specific instructions on the how to be reborn or saved, NO WHERE why?
ALL OF Paul's letters WERE NOT written to the unsaved, but to the saved or reborn.
After the book of Acts in Paul's letters he was giving instructions about how to live, what to do as Christians to reach the lost, what happens in water baptism, and things about the Holy Ghost. Off the milk and on the MEAT.
Through Paul’s travels he heard different problems in the churches and was addressing the problems in each of his letters.
His letters included both CORRECTION and PRAISE.
If you were there to hear the instructions Paul gave that birthed churches it would be the same message as the rest of JESUS disciples. See Acts 19 it shows what Paul told the people to do.
Paul did NOT have his own gospel. Notice how he introduces himself PAUL AN APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST.
Look who the letters are addressed to,
1 Corinthians,
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
2 Corinthians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Romans,
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians,
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Ephesians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Philippians,
1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Colossians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians,
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians,
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
All letters after the book of Thessalonians had nothing to with Paul’s ministry to churches.
Back to Paul
Proof Paul followed JESUS along with the rest of JESUS disciples is seen in what happened in the beginning stages of when he started the church of Ephesus Acts 19. For some reason Paul questioned whether the 12 disciples had the Holy Ghost yet. He found out the men did not know what happened at Pentecost. He told them about JESUS and they got baptized. And after Paul laid hands on them they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19,
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
After Paul baptized those folk, and they received the Holy Ghost he stayed there for 2-3 years building the church of Jews and Gentiles.
If anyone debates Paul preached a different message, it's HIS word your debating not with me.
I bet there will be a lot of people who share Paul's letters trying to prove Paul said we are saved by grace or faith alone using Paul letters and debate HIS word.
BEFORE you do, read from the top with an open heart and look , Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ and each and every letter is to a church, not the unsaved.
We CAN'T debate HIS word, it says what it say and means what it means.
It takes more than one discipline to deal with Scripture. There is a lot of logical error and flawed reasoning dealing with Scripture taking place in these discussions. WE should be doing a much better job after a few thousand years of being in Christ having the Text and the Spirit.
I've noticed that people get hung up on hypothetical 'ifs'. I'm sure, though, that I've really only noticed this because of that one especially beautiful day of which I typically 'look up' in awe of God's amazingly creative capabilities and saw a cloud formation spell out "IFs". And so, ever since, I especially note and pay closer attention to any "IFs" I encounter in scripture. For instance, in the verse that claims, "faith is alone 'IF' it is without works." This is a hypothetical that isn't meant imply that there actually is such a thing, even as speaking as "IF" there were.
If I asserted the statement, "If I were a unicorn, then I would be lonely," it would be absurd if any listeners deduced that I was, in fact, a unicorn.
There was a point in studies some time ago where I began understanding that "if" was one of the biggest words in Scripture. The Greek has a few different ways to word it to indicate what type of argument is being put forth when it's being stated. I began seeing some of its uses as no different than commands or instruction on what to do or not do - what to think or not think.
There are right ways to use it and wrong ways to use it. Speculation seems to be used a bit too much and one of the bigger flaws in reasoning seems to be drawing conclusions based upon arguments from silence, which at times is just a hypothetical "if" being asserted as fact.
Think I'll start watching clouds more... One of my earliest recollections about God was being very young laying in a field on a beautiful day watching the clouds do what they do and wondering where they came from - who made them. I kind of inherently knew it was a "who".
This is what you actually stated (Your post 7076):
"No, my friend. You conveniently left out verse 38 in Acts 2. Also, the middle wall of partition didn't come down until after the fall of Israel. Some of you Gentiles seem to love leaving out key elements in scripture to defend your false teaching pastors whom you love and follow for reasons I cannot fathom. Salvation is of the Jews, just as scripture declares, and yet Gentiles the world over ignore that with gleeful abandon without consideration for the ramifications.
But, you're free to believe the lies taught to you by whatever liars you choose to follow after."
FYI-The Word is very clear that salvation is of the Jews and I have never said otherwise. I'm somewhat surprised why you feel the need to go into attack mode.
As for the wall of partition Jesus dealt with that at the cross as attested to in scripture. (Eph. 2:13-15)
Note as well that scripture reveals God used Peter to open the door to the Gentiles. (Acts 15:7, 10:43-48, 11:1, 18) It was after the events recorded in Acts 10 that Paul is recruited by Barnabas to help spread the gospel. (Acts 11:25-26) The two preach to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 11-13) Afterward Paul's focus turns mainly to Gentiles. (Acts 14...)
Please don't assume this is an attack. I'm simply asking as to how you surmised that reference in Ephesians 2 somehow shows the wall of partition allegedly coming down on the basis of the cross? The scope of what Jesus accomplished on the cross does indeed go beyond the collapse of that wall, but that context says nothing about the cross being the cause for that collapse...at least, not without injecting that assumption where, to me, it's not at all stated nor implied.
Please explain.
MM
Then most everyone on this forum is intimated arrogant because most every status quo is unabashedly questioned constantly. There are likely other reasonings behind intimating arrogance.
Jesus gave the command to baptize in the name of... What name was Jesus referring to? The actions of His apostles supply the answer. They obeyed His command by consistently baptizing people in the name of Jesus. It is clear they understood a truth Paul reveals to the Colossians; In Jesus dwells all the fulness of the Godhead. (Col. 2:9-13)
What I was pointing out about ignorance being no excuse is that receiving the Holy Ghost, and having one's sin remitted in obedience to water baptism are essential elements of the NT rebirth. (John 3:3-5)
I believe Luke 12 references different degrees of punishment regarding ignorance relative to a born again believer's walk in general.
Why Cornelius and others were required to be water baptized in order to be saved is attested to in various places within scripture, Note first, God's truth concerning any topic is established by at least 2-3 scriptures. (Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1) And scripture reveals (Acts 2:38) and confirms (Acts 8:12-18, 19:1-7) both receiving the Holy Ghost and being water baptized in the name of Jesus are requirements for everyone regardless of nationality. As such the same was required of Cornelius and those with him in order to be granted repentance unto life. (Acts 10:43-48, 11:15-18) Personally, I have come to believe in the possibility that the gospel requirements first presented in Acts 2:38, acted upon by those who placed their trust in Jesus, may actually address man's spirit, soul and body individually. (1 Thess. 5:23)
Lastly, I believe God will shine light on what He requires pertaining to the NT rebirth when hungry hearts seek Him. (Cornelius is a perfect example)
Jesus said; those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled.
Romans 1:7 KJV
7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:2 KJV
2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
2 Corinthians 1:1 KJV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Galatians 1:2 KJV
2) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Ephesians 1:1 KJV
1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Galatians 1:2 KJV
2) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Colossians 1:2 KJV
2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 KJV
1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 KJV
1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul also addressed letters to Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. These were addressed to individuals, church leaders, so for these I would agree with you. But the other letters, the large majority of his writings, were addressed to the churchs and their members.
Where is it you see Roman et. al. addressed only to the leaders? I don't see that.
Much love!
Ephesians 5:25-33 KJV
25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28) So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33) Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
While we are compared to a bride, we are identified as members of His body. This is consistent throughout.
Much love!
You really think Paul was writhing letters to the congreation?
They would be adress to johh doe at the church of Thessalonians etc.
But it's to the church and the SAINTS!
The other way you would know it was to the leaders is Paul never gives specific instructions on how to be saved after Acts 19.
If Paul didn't know how to be saved he would have never asked the same questions Paul is asking you,
Have you recieved the Holy Ghost since you have belived? Acts 19.
Have you noticed that while Paul's letters are written to the churches, but also include the unsaved?
Examine yourself to see whether you be in the faith.
And there is much written that way. No, Paul did not exclude salvific instruction in his letters.
Romans 10:9-11 KJV
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Much love!
When Paul asked the Ephesus,
Acts 19,
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Romans 10:9, perfect verses proving not once saved always saved.
Paul is telling those who have been saved to get out and Confess JESUS to stay saved.
What good are we if we don't?
Keep reading, 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Do you really think Paul would give the same message as Peter to SOME and just confess to others?
As a complex question, well, you can look up what that means.
Do you really think that Paul would contradict himself?
These kinds of questions aren't worthwhile in my opinion.
Much love!
A rather convoluted reply.
Frankly, I don't understand it.
Maybe the other member does.
OBEY means to OBEY.
Apparently, you don't like that word.
John 3:36 NASB
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 KJV
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him .
To clarify:
It does not matter which version you like best.
The mean exactly the same.
In koine Greek to not believe means to not obey.