Loss of salvation???

[Just_A__Follower]

I do believe I said exactly the same.

The money you gave to that someone BEFORE salvation helped THAT PERSON
but did not contribute to your salvation without faith being present.

No. Before my salvation the money I gave to them was not good. It was selfish. The money I gave to the person after my salvation was good but in no way did it contribute to my salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

Well if we're referring to Christ's commands in the gospels yes, I assumed that is what the statement related to

Really? You know people who can quote every one?

Not that it wouldn't be profitable, but no one ever kept the law by knowing it or by their own endeavor. Better to walk in the Spirit and simply be guided.

 

[sawdust]

You say the d a r ndest things Sawdust....

Are you saying that we should only obey Jesus if we're afraid of Him or afraid of going to hell?

Your verse:

To have FAITH means to BELIEVE.

What do you think BELIEVE means?

I am saying many do good works from anything other than faith.

To have faith means more than simply believing. I believe I will wake tomorrow to the sunrise but I cannot be certain. The Lord might take me home today. Faith, on the other hand, is certainty.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

To believe is an act of our will, acknowledging what is stated is true and and acting in accordance with that truth. From that comes faith, for the word empowers that truth and makes it real in our lives. It is the word from where faith comes Rom.10:17 and it is the word that makes it more precious than gold. 1Pet.1:7 The power of faith Matt.17:20 comes from the Word.

When we stand before the Lord to be evaluated, the Lord will look at our works to see if they are the ones He prepared for us Eph.2:10 for those works are the ones derived from our faith and not simply from our own ideas of the good works we should be doing. For without faith we cannot please God. Heb.11:6

James made it very clear that works are the evidence of faith, not the way to gain faith. Jm.2:18 The Lord calls us to believe which, is on us to do and He tests our faith to show us that sometimes, we don't have the faith we think we have.

Faith is not a static thing. We can say I believe God cares for me but to what degree? We all experience a pile on at times where our faith ends and we question "do I believe God cares for me? That's when it is decision time, either believe the word or believe your circumstances. If you pass the test by trusting the word then you end up with faith and next time you will breeze through, not even realising there is a test.

 

[Musicmaster]

When was the fall of Israel?
70AD?

[NOTE: Items in brackets are my clarifying comments.]

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree [Israel] planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit [faith] thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser [the Father] of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree [Israel], and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Three years Jesus strove with my ancestors in Israel, and to no avail for they had Him killed by the Gentiles. One years later...what happened?

Acts 7:54-60
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing [before, Jesus was seated at the right hand of God (Acts 2:34), but now was STANDING - this is important] on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

We did not deserve his cry for that sin not being laid to our charge. This event is known to be one year after the ascension of Christ Jesus. The olive tree is symbolic of Israel all throughout scriptures. Do you see the importance of this and it being the one parable He never did explain the details with His never having been asked about it? We of Israel, among the Messianic Jews of I have been associated, have held this in great stock given that this was our fall as the nation of priests, but only for a time...

Do you mean that there was one gospel before that and one after that??

The mystery revealed to Paul is what became known as the Gospel of Grace whereby salvation is come unto the Gentiles and to Jews alike who were not yet under the ministry of the twelve, for Paul did not ever tread on another man's work. Given that something like salvation had come unto the Gentiles clearly indicates that it wasn't available to them before, not under the Kingdom Gospel without joining with Israel for salvation. Why?

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they [Israel] stumbled that they [Israel] should fall? God forbid: but rather through their [Israel] fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Ephesians 2:8-14
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [So much for works-based salvation...]
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Some Evangelicals choose to not accept these verses for what they say because of the resulting implications to all they had been taught by their false teaching pastors. It's not easy rethinking what one has believed for so long, only to find that he or she was wrong.

MM

 

[Toknow]

OK, so if someone asked to lend from you, you'd happily lend to them without ever expecting anything back

You're doing what I asked you not to do.
Because it's silly Undergrace.

You're basically saying that I have to be perfect
and you want me to reply to personal questions.

That's not what I'm here for.
I enjoy discussing theology and that's why I'm here.

Also, some members post comments that make it appear that good deeds are not
important in the Christian faith,,,,which is what Jesus taught for over 3 years.

He didn't speak about His death until the end of His ministry...
But He spoke about doing good from the very beginning.

You don't invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind, lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven
If someone stole from you, you'd gladly give them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them
If you are persecuted you leap for joy.
If you have ever fasted, you've ensured no one knows you are fasting
You truly in your heart love your enemies, those who may malign, harrass or persecute you.

BTW
I did not say they should be ignored.
I've only given you a few samples

You could consider everything and maybe give a more serious reply.
Or maybe not.

I've posted scripture.
Maybe you haven't seen it.

Jesus said that not those that cry LORD, LORD will go to heaven,
but those that do the will of the Father.

What does that mean?

Matthew 7:21
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[Undergrace1]

You're doing what I asked you not to do.
Because it's silly Undergrace.

You're basically saying that I have to be perfect
and you want me to reply to personal questions.

That's not what I'm here for.
I enjoy discussing theology and that's why I'm here.

Also, some members post comments that make it appear that good deeds are not
important in the Christian faith,,,,which is what Jesus taught for over 3 years.

He didn't speak about His death until the end of His ministry...
But He spoke about doing good from the very beginning.





You could consider everything and maybe give a more serious reply.
Or maybe not.

I've posted scripture.
Maybe you haven't seen it.

Jesus said that not those that cry LORD, LORD will go to heaven,
but those that do the will of the Father.

What does that mean?

Matthew 7:21
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

I simply said I'd never come across anyone who even tried to obey them all, it seemed to me you took issue with that. In the circumstances I feel entitled to post to you what I did

 

[sawdust]

The good works/deeds we do before salvation come from our faith?

OOOOOK.

So we have faith BEFORE salvation?

Are you reformed?

Huh? What part of "Christ's faith" do you read as it being our faith? He rose form the dead because He was faithful and without sin.

It seems your prejudice against me is colouring your responses? You don't seem to be hearing what I'm saying at all.

 

[Toknow]

No. Before my salvation the money I gave to them was not good. It was selfish. The money I gave to the person after my salvation was good but in no way did it contribute to my salvation.

So

1. Giving to the poor is not good.

2. Giving to the poor AFTER salvation means absoutely nothing to God.


OK.

Colossians 3:23-24
23Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

 

[Toknow]

I am saying many do good works from anything other than faith.

sawdust,,,,
This is what you stated...see my post no. 5852:

"I wonder how many do good works out of guilt or fear instead of seeing them flow naturally from their faith as James indicated?"


It seems to me that you're stating that some do good works out of guilt or fear.
You did NOT mention those without faith...so I believed you were speaking about Christians since that's what was being discussed.

To have faith means more than simply believing. I believe I will wake tomorrow to the sunrise but I cannot be certain. The Lord might take me home today. Faith, on the other hand, is certainty.

FAITH is a noun.
BELIEVE is a verb.

If a person BELIEVES in someone
they have FAITH in that person.

Faith is a component of Belief.

Faith is not a certainty.
That's why it's faith.

I'll leave it at that.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

To believe is an act of our will, acknowledging what is stated is true and and acting in accordance with that truth. From that comes faith, for the word empowers that truth and makes it real in our lives. It is the word from where faith comes Rom.10:17 and it is the word that makes it more precious than gold. 1Pet.1:7 The power of faith Matt.17:20 comes from the Word.

Agreed.

When we stand before the Lord to be evaluated, the Lord will look at our works to see if they are the ones He prepared for us Eph.2:10 for those works are the ones derived from our faith and not simply from our own ideas of the good works we should be doing. For without faith we cannot please God. Heb.11:6

Hebrews 11:6 does not support what you've posted.

Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

It's stating that we need faith in order to please God.
It says that God rewards those who seek Him.

It IS stating that our faith pleases God...
but I don't see the connection to what you've stated about works.

IOW..
HOW would you know what works God has planned for you?
WHAT do you think good works are??

James made it very clear that works are the evidence of faith, not the way to gain faith. Jm.2:18 The Lord calls us to believe which, is on us to do and He tests our faith to show us that sometimes, we don't have the faith we think we have.

James made a simple statement that some cannot accept.
He said that faith without works is a dead faith.
IOW,,,for our faith to be ALIVE....it must have good works..
or it is dead.

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [p]dead, being by itself.

Faith is not a static thing. We can say I believe God cares for me but to what degree? We all experience a pile on at times where our faith ends and we question "do I believe God cares for me? That's when it is decision time, either believe the word or believe your circumstances. If you pass the test by trusting the word then you end up with faith and next time you will breeze through, not even realising there is a test.

Agreed.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

So

1. Giving to the poor is not good.

2. Giving to the poor AFTER salvation means absoutely nothing to God.


OK.

Colossians 3:23-24
23Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,
24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Giving to the poor before salvation is done out of selfishness therefore it is not good.

Giving to the poor after salvation is good because it is done for the lord not for one’s salvation.

If one is only doing it for their salvation, would that not also be selfish?

The works are the fruit of salvation. The works didn’t contribute to the salvation. An inheritance can’t be earned. Inheritance comes through the relationship of being a son or daughter to a parent. Paul is addressing those who are already saved and belong to Christ. Paul is giving them motivation to live the way God wants us to.

 

[Toknow]

[NOTE: Items in brackets are my clarifying comments.]

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree [Israel] planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit [faith] thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser [the Father] of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree [Israel], and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Three years Jesus strove with my ancestors in Israel, and to no avail for they had Him killed by the Gentiles. One years later...what happened?

Acts 7:54-60
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing [before, Jesus was seated at the right hand of God (Acts 2:34), but now was STANDING - this is important] on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

We did not deserve his cry for that sin not being laid to our charge. This event is known to be one year after the ascension of Christ Jesus. The olive tree is symbolic of Israel all throughout scriptures. Do you see the importance of this and it being the one parable He never did explain the details with His never having been asked about it? We of Israel, among the Messianic Jews of I have been associated, have held this in great stock given that this was our fall as the nation of priests, but only for a time...



The mystery revealed to Paul is what became known as the Gospel of Grace whereby salvation is come unto the Gentiles and to Jews alike who were not yet under the ministry of the twelve, for Paul did not ever tread on another man's work. Given that something like salvation had come unto the Gentiles clearly indicates that it wasn't available to them before, not under the Kingdom Gospel without joining with Israel for salvation. Why?

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they [Israel] stumbled that they [Israel] should fall? God forbid: but rather through their [Israel] fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Ephesians 2:8-14
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [So much for works-based salvation...]
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Some Evangelicals choose to not accept these verses for what they say because of the resulting implications to all they had been taught by their false teaching pastors. It's not easy rethinking what one has believed for so long, only to find that he or she was wrong.

MM

But why do you assume that the other person is wrong?
Maybe you're wrong!
It's going on midnight here and your posts take time.

i did skim through.
The mystery Paul speaks of is that the Gentiles will be included in the family of God...the Body of Christ...
they will be grafted into the vine.

tomorrow...

 

[Howdy]

I'm going to answer this in the simplest way I can think of. Yes, it IS possible to lose salvation.


KJV Galatians 5:19-22
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Revelations also shines a similar light on the subject.

KJV Revelations 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like losing salvation IS possible, if you fall under any of these categories. And yes, repenting and asking for forgiveness is ALWAYS a good idea.

Where is Scripture is the list of sins that lead to a lose of salvation and sins that do not?

 

[Toknow]

I simply said I'd never come across anyone who even tried to obey them all, it seemed to me you took issue with that. In the circumstances I feel entitled to post to you what I did

It's easy Undergrace
We pay attention to all of what Jesus said.
We TRY to do our best.

I've never visited anyone in prison and never will.
I used to feed a poor person - he sat on my steps and ate and drank.
Never invited him in because I was afraid to.

We don't have to be perfect.
But Jesus taught good works and He taught we have to obey.

That doesn't mean we have to do all of them...
That doesn't mean we have to be perfect.

DO YOUR BEST
JESUS DOES THE REST

What's at issue here is the statement that we must obey Jesus.
Please explain how that could possibly be debated...

I also asked @Just_A__Follower but he didn't reply.
No one ever does.

 

[Ouch]

Please quote where I said Jesus had identity issues.

Did I ever say Jesus is not God?

The ONE GOD(singular) is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Are you always this difficult to have a discussion with? I’m still waiting on you to explain those verses. There’re in post #5,796

Those verses, when JESUS was a human he was talking to HIMSELF.

You never explained John 3:13!

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

What are your there gods names?

Why did JESUS disciples baptize in JESUS name?

 

[Toknow]

Huh? What part of "Christ's faith" do you read as it being our faith? He rose form the dead because He was faithful and without sin.

It seems your prejudice against me is colouring your responses? You don't seem to be hearing what I'm saying at all.

Are you now saying that it's JESUS' faith that saves us
and not OURS?

I do apologize sawdust...
but you make comments that are not very clear to me.

 

[Undergrace1]

It's easy Undergrace
We pay attention to all of what Jesus said.
We TRY to do our best.

I've never visited anyone in prison and never will.
I used to feed a poor person - he sat on my steps and ate and drank.
Never invited him in because I was afraid to.

We don't have to be perfect.
But Jesus taught good works and He taught we have to obey.

That doesn't mean we have to do all of them...
That doesn't mean we have to be perfect.

DO YOUR BEST
JESUS DOES THE REST

What's at issue here is the statement that we must obey Jesus.
Please explain how that could possibly be debated...

I also asked @Just_A__Follower but he didn't reply.
No one ever does.

Maybe an important issue is to view it Paul's way:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so FULFILL the law of Christ Gal6:2

 

[Just_A__Follower]

It's easy Undergrace
We pay attention to all of what Jesus said.
We TRY to do our best.

I've never visited anyone in prison and never will.
I used to feed a poor person - he sat on my steps and ate and drank.
Never invited him in because I was afraid to.

We don't have to be perfect.
But Jesus taught good works and He taught we have to obey.

That doesn't mean we have to do all of them...
That doesn't mean we have to be perfect.

DO YOUR BEST
JESUS DOES THE REST

What's at issue here is the statement that we must obey Jesus.
Please explain how that could possibly be debated...

I also asked @Just_A__Follower but he didn't reply.
No one ever does.

What did I not answer?

 

[Toknow]

Giving to the poor before salvation is done out of selfishness therefore it is not good.

So if I give a guy 10 dollars in a hat he has put on the sidewalk...
I'm being SELFISH??

So it's better if I DO NOT give him the 10$ ??

Isn't it more selfish if i KEEP the 10$ for myself??

Giving to the poor after salvation is good because it is done for the lord not for one’s salvation.

If one is only doing it for their salvation, would that not also be selfish?

You just referred to giving to the poor AFTER salvation...

so how could it be being done to GAIN salvation??


[QUOTEThe works are the fruit of salvation. The works didn’t contribute to the salvation. An inheritance can’t be earned. Inheritance comes through the relationship of being a son or daughter to a parent. Paul is addressing those who are already saved and belong to Christ. Paul is giving them motivation to live the way God wants us to.[/QUOTE]

Yes. There's a major misunderstanding here and it's really late here.

If you reply, I'll be happy to reply tomorrow.

I NEVER said works save a person.

 

[Toknow]

Maybe an important issue is to view it Paul's way:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so FULFILL the law of Christ Gal6:2

Agreed.

 

[Toknow]

What did I not answer?

You missed it in one of my posts to you.
No problem...
here it is:

What's at issue here is the statement that we must obey Jesus.
Please explain how that could possibly be debated...