Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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I said:
"The first 3 chapters are dedicated to NT churches. And 22:16 states clearly that "this testimony" given to John is "for the churches"."
I was making the point that the book of Revelation is bookended by references to "the churches". Showing that the entire book of Revelation is for the churches. There are pre-tribbers who claim Revelation isn't relevant for the churches, since they will be raptured out of here and not participate in the Trib.
"The first 3 chapters are dedicated to NT churches. And 22:16 states clearly that "this testimony" given to John is "for the churches"."
I was making the point that the book of Revelation is bookended by references to "the churches". Showing that the entire book of Revelation is for the churches. There are pre-tribbers who claim Revelation isn't relevant for the churches, since they will be raptured out of here and not participate in the Trib.
I'm not sure what your point is here. The bookends of Revelation mentions "the churchES".
I haven't said the church will "experience the plagues listed". I do believe that the church will go through the Trib. There will be many martyred. I believe that the faithful and obedient believers will be spared the wrath, just as Israel was spared the plagues in Egypt. I also believe that the rebellious/unfaithful/disobedient believers will experience the "sin unto death" per 1 John 5:16, which is the ultimate form of God's divine discipline. We see examples throughout Scripture: 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Cor 10:1-11, 1 Cor 11:30, Acts 5, etc.
Which verse indicates that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers back up to heaven? None. There aren't any. And Acts 3:21 is clear that Jesus stays/remains in heaven "until the times of restoration".
iow, there is no U-turn in His travels.
The Bible indicates that faithful believers will be spared God's wrath.
Rev 3:10 - 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
It's only the obedient that will be kept from the 'hour of trial' coming to the whole earth. But the resurrection/rapture is for ALL believers.
When Paul mentioned "God's wrath", it was in contrast to salvation. ie: the lake of fire, which is the opposite of salvation.
But there are many warnings of God's divine discipline, up to and including physical death. Read Rev 3:10 and think about it. Only the faithful believers will be kept from the hour of trial, not EVERY believer.
And there isn't any verse that says that Jesus resurrects/raptures all dead and living believers and takes them back to heaven.
And since Rev 20:5 places the "first resurrection" after the Tribulation, I find no reason to accept a pre-Trib rapture/resurrection.
Right.
And what I just said is applicable in the way I said it.
Just because I mentioned that in the past (in my past posts on this) "WHEN I HAVE ADDRESSED [/posted about] REV2-3" that I covered this (i.e. that its saying "churchES" ≠ saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"), does NOT mean I am not acknowledging the "bookended" wording in Revelation, see.
--saying "churchES" (made up of "believers" AND "those who are not actually saved") ≠ saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (made up of ONLY "believers")
Also in past posts I've pointed out the SEQUENCE issues in Matt22:7 [(<--please read that verse: "was WROTH") re:70ad events, like Lk21:23,20 ("WRATH") / Lk19:41-44 (ALL 70ad events)] AND THEN Matt22:8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" ("THEN SAITH HE" AFTER the 70ad events [not to mention, AFTER His "ascension"!]... when the LATER Rev95ad "[The] Revelation" was written, saying, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/gave unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO [<--comp. 4:1] His servants [<--see Rev7:3, for one example] things which must come to pass [<--comp. 1:19c / 4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." [NOT things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 yrs, nor things which would transpire SOON/IMMEDIATELY from when written (which are instead ADVERBS)])
--so Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 correspond... all covering the "far-future" aspects of the Book, which are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and conclude with His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 time-slot [i.e. covering the future, specific, limited, 7-yr trib yrs--where SEAL #1 corresponds with the START of the trib's "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" ( = the SEALS), and other passages I've pointed out, which I won't go into here]
^ [to "overcome" means you are a "believer"... you have trusted Christ... you've come to faith... It does not mean you're a "super-Christian"]
--"churchES" are made up of both "believers" AND "those who come in His name, but who are not actually SAVED PERSONS [/believers/saints/trusting in Christ for salvation]"... aka what we commonly call "Christendom"
--[not the same thing as saying] "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (which is ONLY believers--ALL those saved in this present age)
--"churchES" are made up of both "believers" AND "those who come in His name, but who are not actually SAVED PERSONS [/believers/saints/trusting in Christ for salvation]"... aka what we commonly call "Christendom"
--[not the same thing as saying] "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (which is ONLY believers--ALL those saved in this present age)
The Philadelphia Church. The genuine believing Church. The raptured Church.
Rev 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of THE (definite article) hour of THE (definite article) trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those DWELLING UPON THE EARTH.
You are seriously confused. No believers on the planet earth could possibly be actually spared tribulation wrath. These judgments are epic and global in scope. Even Bill Gates and Vladimir Putin in their bunkers will experience it. Even the people taking the mark will experience it. The tribulation believers suffer the exact same devastation except they will also be persecuted and then executed. To say that any believer is spared wrath during the tribulation is ridiculous. It is clear that they suffer more than anyone else.
The result of refusing the mark and refusing to worship the beast and believing in Jesus is not being spared wrath but being executed.
No.......in fact these Tribulation Saints are a different order of the first resurrection. The Church, the earlier order has already enjoyed their resurrection.
John wasn't addressing believers at all in Rev 1-3. The 7 churches were believers. If he thought some of the churches had unbelievers in them, he would have given them the gospel, NOT admonitions to service.
Every single pre-trib rapture Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist has argued for decades that the "taken/left" verses refer to the "secret rapture" 7 years before the Second Coming, but you say they're all barking up the wrong tree? I've got some bad news for you - you need to find a new tree too[pre-tribber, here (me) ]
I've posted before (perhaps you haven't seen it), that the "one taken, the other left" applies in the following way (not the way you are suggesting "pre-tribbers" have it).
"as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"... where I've said:
--ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth (NOT "our Rapture"), to judge / govern / reign (i.e. the earthly MK age commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth);
--the "one taken" is taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day);
--the one "left" is left on the earth, to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children (just as in Noah's day; Only the "saints / righteous / BLESSED" [i.e. "saved" persons] will ENTER the MK age, upon His "RETURN" there--these are folks who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and who will have survived [alive] throughout the entire trib years, as in Dan12:12 and about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the same time-slot/circumstances, including in this Matt24 context "BLESSED" and in ITS parallel passage Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "BLESSED"... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347])
--thus, Matt24 / Lk17, where these phrases are found (re: His Second Coming to the earth time-slot), parallel both Gen9:1 and Dan2:35c "and FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth" (i.e. the "taken / left" passages are NOT "Rapture" contexts).
Because you claim the "knew not until" part of Jesus' Flood comparison applies to the Second Coming, but if there's a "secret rapture" accompanied by all that stuff about crashing planes and cars and empty clothes where the saints disappeared, how the flip can there be anyone at the Second Coming who "knew not" about what was coming? They've had 7 flippin years to hear about it!
Seriously, what will it take before you guys are honest enough to admit that Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism has too many plot holes and warrants taking a good long hard look at Protestant Historicism?
You seem pretty impressed with your proclamations. Where do you get that? Haven't you ever read what Jesus said about the Tribulation?
Matt 24:22 - “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
iow, God limits the Trib to just 7 years, OR "no one would survive". So, yes, believers WILL survive the Tribulation.
God can protect believers through the Trib just as He kept ALL the Jews alive during the 10 plagues of Egypt.
Why do you limit God's power?
Irrelevant.
Thank you for your opinion.
btw, if no believers survive the Trib, who are those "who are alive and remain" (1 Thess 4:15- According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.)?
Why do you reject Paul's words?
If you have something other than opinion, please share.
Once again, who was Paul referring to in 1Thess 4:15?
Hardly. There is only ONE "first resurrection". Rev 20:5.
Actually, there is no need to spill so much ink on this.
Believing in the pre-trib rapture is not salvific.
If you are correct, and that all of us go thru the Tribulation, we just need to follow the doctrine found in Hebrews to Revelations to ensure our salvation in the end.
It will be much tougher to be saved then, though. Among other things, we would need to do some of the following works
- Rejecting the mark of beast, meaning you are out of the economic system, you cannot buy and sell and must trust God to supernaturally feed you. (James 5)
- Feeding and giving shelter to the persecuted Jews, who are the brethren of Jesus (Matthew 25:31-46)
- Enduring to the end (Matthew 24:13)
Every single pre-trib rapture Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurist has argued for decades that the "taken/left" verses refer to the "secret rapture" 7 years before the Second Coming, but you say they're all barking up the wrong tree? I've got some bad news for you - you need to find a new tree too
Because you claim the "knew not until" part of Jesus' Flood comparison applies to the Second Coming, but if there's a "secret rapture" accompanied by all that stuff about crashing planes and cars and empty clothes where the saints disappeared, how the flip can there be anyone at the Second Coming who "knew not" about what was coming? They've had 7 flippin years to hear about it!
Seriously, what will it take before you guys are honest enough to admit that Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism has too many plot holes and warrants taking a good long hard look at Protestant Historicism?
I've said (over and over in my past posts), that in the days of Noah, it was not that they had never heard the warning:
--Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" 2 Peter 2:5 (doubt that means he was commissioned to utter silence);
--Noah knew about this for perhaps 120 years, Genesis 6:3, and for sure it took him a lengthy time period to "make"/"prepare the ark," which building-of (let alone the "stocking" of it with the food-enough for them) would not have been accomplished in total secret (i.e. the building and preparing of it was not a "one-man" project);
--the word in Matt24:39 "they knew not [until]" (G1097 - knew) does not mean they'd never HEARD the warning about judgment coming, but that they disregarded the Word of God via Noah (just as we see *1 Peter 3:20[19] speaks regarding [*see next post, if I can find my old post on that])...; the word means:
[Strong's - G1097]
"allow, be aware of, perceive.
"A prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as follow, with others not thus clearly expressed) -- allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand."
... again, this does not mean they never HEARD the warning, but that they disregarded the Word of God via Noah, and thus were destroyed in the flood (which is the central point that Matt24:38-39 is making with regard to that future judgment)
--"and destroyed them ALL" (Lk17:27,29) is NOT what takes place following "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... which I've gone into in past posts, won't take up space here to cover that whole aspect (Dan2:35, Dan7:27, etc)... but know that this (what we're covering) is at the point of His Second Coming to the earth / His "RETURN" to the earth (when thereafter commences the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, where only the "righteous / BLESSED / saints" will ENTER it [and these particular ones will be "still-living" mortals (saints only)]--just as in Noah's day)--it is NOT a "Rapture" CONTEXT
^ Found it
[quoting old post]
[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3 - re: "preached to the spirits in prison"]
"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.
"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."
-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
[quoting old post]
[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3 - re: "preached to the spirits in prison"]
"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.
"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."
-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
You did express that the church will experience the plagues by saying ' I do believe that the church will go through the Trib.'
Let's not confuse the issue. I'm talking about the church who are living by faith and are ready when the Lord appears. They will be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. I'm not talking about the rebellious/unfaithful/disobedient believers. These people will be left here because of those reasons, no extra oil, not watching and just plain living according to the sinful nature. For those who are living like that, Jesus said 'that day will close on them like a trap.'
The entire seven years is the tribulation period. Anyone on the earth during that time will be exposed to God's wrath. The idea that believers are going to be spared God's wrath is only conjecture, as there is no scripture that states that. Not only that, but the church is never mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. It is the great tribulation saints who will be on the earth at that time. These are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as the great number of white robed saints which no one can count. These are those who will have become believers after the church is gathered and during the time of God's wrath.
Many attempt to use that scripture as the reason why the church cannot be gathered, but it is not restricting Christ from gathering His church. The Lord is not under house arrest so that He cannot leave heaven!
There is a U-turn. The event of the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. People who attempt to put the church as being on the earth during the time of God's wrath don't understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. There will be no ark to get on and no small city to run to, because Jesus said, the plagues of wrath are going to come upon the whole inhabited world.
The above is exactly correct. Those believers who keep His patient endurance and who overcome, will be kept out of the hour of trial. And the way that they are kept out of it, is because they the Lord will appear just prior to the hour of trial and will remove the church. The actual word is 'ek' which means to be kept 'out of' the hour of trial, not through it or in it, but kept out of.
I can see that you are repeating a known teaching, because I've debated it many times before. The fact is that, when we became believers, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, we are not appointed to suffer any wrath, whether the wrath that will becoming upon the earth leading up to the Lord's returns nor the final punishment which is the lake of fire. Believers are not appointed to suffer any of it. True believer in the church are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief," which means that we will not remain on the earth during that time of God's wrath.
All of the rebukes and promises within the letters to the seven churches are to all believers throughout the entire church period. Therefore, every believer who overcomes and has patient endurance will be kept out of that hour of trial. And the only way to do that is to remove the church from the earth according to His promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:16-17
And there isn't any verse that says that Jesus resurrects/raptures all dead and living believers and takes them back to heaven.
Rev.20:4-6 is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, not the church. Notice that this resurrection only mentions a resurrection of the dead, but does not mention the living being changed and caught up. This is because the first resurrection has phases to it.
* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at the Lord's appearing (dead resurrecting and the living being changed and caught up)
* The 144,000/Male Child (caught up to God's throne)
* The two witnesses
* The great tribulation saints (After the Lord returns to the earth to end the age)
All of the above fall under the first resurrection, which is in opposition to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years.
In addition to all of this, the church as the bride, is already shown to be in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb during the time of God's wrath, where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, they are seen following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that the bride received at the wedding. In further support that the church returns with the Lord, we have the following:
"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (Armageddon), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” - Jude 14
In John 14:1-3, Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us there and that He would come back to get us to take us those places, that where He is we may be also. Jesus' coming to get us to take us back to the Father's house is imminent and is the next event to take place. Once that happens, then the time of God's wrath will begin with the antichrist establishing his seven year covenant with Israel, with all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments beginning to take place.
How can you compare a people who had no evidence for Noah's claims (they never even saw it rain) and thus chose to remain ignorant of the coming destruction until it was too late -- with a people who you claim will not only know for certain what's about to hit the planet, but will know the exact timing of when it happens?
The end times have to reflect what happened in Noah's day, and the only interpretation that makes sense is that the gathering together of the saints and the Second Coming happen simultaneously on the same day with the righteous left alive in Jesus our Ark of Safety, like Noah and family, and the wicked being "taken away" in death like the faithless Antediluvians.
Your interpretation leaves out a crucial detail Jesus intentionally wanted us to understand: that the wicked will "know not until" destruction comes to take them away in death.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In Noah's day, it wasn't that they'd never HEARD the warning... never SAW the preparations... never WITNESSED the parade of animals going to Noah and boarding the ark (this is not the meaning of "they knew not until").
It's that they DISREGARDED the word of God via Noah, and went about their "every-day business" as though "judgment" was in fact not coming, contrary to what the Word of God via Noah had said.
This is the same as what will be true of that future judgment. (Not that nothing is/has been/will be going on, then,... but they they will disregard the Word of God regarding said judgment--even in the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe point in the trib [which I believe is past the mid-point, 5th Trumpet/1st Woe], we see them "sending gifts to one another, because" per Rev11:10... continuing on in their disregarding God's word via His particular messengers of that future time-period [leading up to... , etc])
Can't God shield a church in the midst of tribulation as He shielded Israel when the 7 last plagues fell in Egypt or like He shielded the 3 Hebrews in the fiery furnace or Daniel in the lion's den or Israel in the Red Sea which swallowed up the Egyptian army?
Of course He can.