Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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GaryA said:
(actually, it ends earlier than that)

;)

:)
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Christ disagrees:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately when the Great Tribulation ends will Christ return and Christ returns at the 7th trump.
 
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ewq1938 said:
Christ disagrees:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately when the Great Tribulation ends will Christ return and Christ returns at the 7th trump.
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Brother, Christ does not return until after the 7th bowl judgment. The following is what the Lord interjects after the 6th bowl has been poured out:

“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”

If He is saying that He 'comes like a thief after the 6th bowl has been poured out, it would infer that the Lord has not yet returned by the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Mat.24:29-30 are referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, not the gathering of the church. It's referring to those believers on the earth who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.
 
ewq1938 said:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately when the Great Tribulation ends will Christ return and Christ returns at the 7th trump.
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Keep studying. You should eventually discover that there is a 3.5-year time span embedded in verse 29 - which is the time of the Two Witnesses.

It is the start of the time of the Two Witnesses that aligns with the end of the GT - not the return of Christ.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
 
ewq1938 said:
Same to you. There is no coincidence that immediately after the Great Tribulation has ended that the 7th trump sounds and that Christ returns.
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The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the chronological order that they are listed in Revelation. It is not until after the 7th bowl that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

The 7th trumpet is not synonymous with the 'last trumpet' that Paul spoke about. That is another false teaching that crept into the church by pigeonholing the word 'trumpet.'

The last trumpet is a blessing where the church is gathered, where the 7th trumpet is one of the plagues of God's wrath. In addition, there is nothing in the context of the 7th trumpet that would support the gathering of the church.
 
ewq1938 said:
Same to you. There is no coincidence that immediately after the Great Tribulation has ended that the 7th trump sounds and that Christ returns.
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Nope - swallow your pride and take a closer look.

I am trying to help you - I don't want to argue with you.

:) :coffee:
 
cv5 said:
Sheer speculation but not supported by Scripture in any meaningful way. The man of sin makes his appearance immediately upon the opening of the first seal Revelation 6:2. This is the distinct and unequivocal marker of the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel chapter 9.

And as 2 Thess 2:3 makes clear, the departure a.k.a. rapture occurs before this person is revealed.
Daniel 9:27 matches perfectly with Rev 6:2.....the duration of the covenant with "many" occurs at the very beginning of the 70th week. The covenant with Israel is broken midweek yes. But there is no doubt that the son of perdition is revealed at the very beginning of the 70th week of Daniel....at the very start of the seven year tribulation period.

Dan 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
......
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Revelation 6:2 is the second half. We're gone before then. But still to this point in time, it means if the Believers go through the first half or much of it, they are still Raptured before Revelation 6:2
 
UCA4J said:
it will all pan out .... ?
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LOL Yes. or... "I am going to wait and see how it all pans out"

I am certainly not going to tell someone they are teaching false doctrine because of the way they interpret eschatological verses that are written to give us a hope and not intended to spell out the exact details of everything.

When John was told not to write down what he heard the 7 thunders that uttered their voices say, it should be enough to tell us that not EVERYTHING has been revealed concerning even this time of Great Tribulation.

There are OTHER events that encompass the 7 thunders that are hidden from us. Where are those in a Chart of the events of Revelation?

One might say they are not going to happen because John was told not to write them down. However a more likely explanation is that we are not to know about it in advance. It is quite possible that the 7 thunders are as stupendous events as the 7 Seals, 7, Bowls, 7 Trumpets, etc. and that what John heard and was about to write, is still going to happen but we are not to be told in advance.

It is quite possible and probable that these events might mess up the best Revelation Charts.

Let us never get to cocky thinking that we have the Key to every mystery concerning eschatology. It is ok to seek understanding, that is definitely what we should spend our lives doing, but we should never say that someone who sees the timing of the rapture differently based on their own study of scripture is teaching false doctrine. That sort of thing should alert one that they have not mastered the most important lessons of Jesus Christ and they are in danger of being found full of shame at His appearing rather than blameless, and without shame which is the goal.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
 
cv5 said:
With that being said I'll have to tell you that I'm firmly in the camp of "the departure" interpretation. A much better fit in terms of context. In terms of textual criticism it could go either way.
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I am not a Greek expert. Therefore I have to rely on those who are. The qualifications of those presenting the departure = rapture theory and those who present the rebellion interpretation leads me to conclude that the departure theory advocates are not of the same caliber of Greek scholars and that the majority of Greek Scholars on committees behind the English translations all agree that rebellion is the meaning of the Greek word.

After three years of Greek I will have an educated reason for why I believe the Greek word means whatever, until then I rely on the experts. Isn't it rather suspect if none of them agree with a particular author?
 
Scribe said:
There is a prophecy of the Great Tribulation which is the same as the Day of His Wrath (Zech 1) and this is not the same as tribulation that all christians must be prepared to go through to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Great Tribulation of Revelation is repeatedly called the wrath of God in Revelation.


Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Zeph 1: 14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Rev 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:10
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 14:19
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 15:1 1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

7And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Therefore many Post Tribulation Rapture proponents suggest that there will be some kind of supernatural protection upon saints during this time so that it cannot be said that they perish under the wrath of God. They use the story of the plagues of Egypt as support and also this passage about the servants of the Lord being sealed in Revelation.

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

But then only 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are sealed and so the question becomes are they really only Jews or is it symbolic representation of all the redeemed? And who's guess is correct?

Maybe saints are being divinely protected from wrath like the hail stones but not being protected from persecution or martyrdom. I don't know, it gets confusing as to how they die by the multitudes from the Antichirst but no one dies from the wrath of the Lamb.

At least most Post Tribulation Rapture proponents do not believe that the saints receive the wrath judgments along with the wicked. How that plays out is not very clear.
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Hi scribe,
This is 'wasted breath'.
You've made the assumption that I don't know what the great tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble is and why it is
different from other trials and persecutions.

I do understand that. It in no way nullifies my point.
 
ewq1938 said:
Christ disagrees:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately when the Great Tribulation ends will Christ return and Christ returns at the 7th trump.
Click to expand...
Yes
With his saints on white horses.
Rapture is separate and at the beginning as Christ framed it.
 
Scribe said:
I am not a Greek expert. Therefore I have to rely on those who are. The qualifications of those presenting the departure = rapture theory and those who present the rebellion interpretation leads me to conclude that the departure theory advocates are not of the same caliber of Greek scholars and that the majority of Greek Scholars on committees behind the English translations all agree that rebellion is the meaning of the Greek word.

After three years of Greek I will have an educated reason for why I believe the Greek word means whatever, until then I rely on the experts. Isn't it rather suspect if none of them agree with a particular author?
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The actual word is not in question.

It simply means "from standing". Or "departure".
It could be implied "from the faith"

Thus you have two choices.....and you can actually go either way. It does not change much of anything.

Context and the weight of scripture does, however.
More verses are better,as in the pretrib rapture doctrine.
 
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Lucy-Pevensie said:
Hi scribe,
This is 'wasted breath'.
You've made the assumption that I don't know what the great tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble is and why it is
different from other trials and persecutions.

I do understand that. It in no way nullifies my point.
Click to expand...
Who are the ones on white horses in rev 19 vs those in acts ch 2 vs those gathered by Jesus sitting on a cloud in rev 14?
 
Ahwatukee said:
Brother, Christ does not return until after the 7th bowl judgment. The following is what the Lord interjects after the 6th bowl has been poured out:

“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”

If He is saying that He 'comes like a thief after the 6th bowl has been poured out, it would infer that the Lord has not yet returned by the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Mat.24:29-30 are referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, not the gathering of the church. It's referring to those believers on the earth who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.
Click to expand...
rev 14 has a gathering of Jews during the gt.
They are the last to attend the wedding feast.
 
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