-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Who said any such thing? The issue is the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. We are not justified BEFORE we believe. That is total nonsense. Please see Romans chapter 4.
A. WHAT IS JUSTIFICATION?
Strong's Concordance
dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Definition: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Usage: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon clarifies this further:
1. properly, (according to the analogy of other verbs ending in , as τυφλόω, δουλόω) to make δίκαιος; to render righteous or such as he ought to be
3. τινα, to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
3 a. with the negative idea predominant, to declare guiltless one accused or who may be accused, acquitted of a charge or reproach
3 b. with the positive idea predominant, to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable
So justification = to be declared or pronounced to be righteous.
B. WHO IS THE ONE WHO JUSTIFIES?
It is God Himself -- Almighty God -- who justifies purely by His grace.
C. WHO IS THE ONE WHO IS JUSTIFIED?
It is the vilest of sinners who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, e.g. the criminal on the cross, and Saul the persecutor of Christians
D. ON WHAT GROUNDS CAN GOD BE JUST AND THE JUSTIFIER OF THE UNGODLY?
On the sole basis of the finished work of Christ -- His sacrificial death, His burial, and His resurrection.
E. WHY IS JUSTIFICATION APART FROM WORKS?
Because it is purely by the grace of God that any sinner may be justified.
F. HOW DO WE KNOW THIS IS TRUE?
The fourth chapter of the epistle to the Romans lays it all out in black and white.
G. ARE WE THEN SAVED (JUSTIFIED) UNTO GOOD WORKS?
Absolutely. But the works DO NOT justify us. See Ephesians 2:8-10
To understand justification by grace through faith we must enter the Divine Courtroom of God, with God presiding as the absolutely righteous Judge. When we stand before Him, how do we plead? "GUILTY". All of us are guilty of violating one, or more, or all, of God's commandments. What is the just penalty for our guilt? It is death -- both the first and second deaths. But God does not desire to see anyone in Hell (the Lake of Fire created for the devil and his angels).
Therefore Christ paid the full penalty for our sins on the cross, and rose again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION. But how do we appropriate this opportunity to be justified? By obedience to the Gospel, which is repentance toward God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. So the moment a sinner calls upon the Lord to be saved (Romans 10) he or she is justified -- declared righteous and at the same time declared "NOT GUILTY". This has absolutely nothing to do with the future good works God expects from His children.
Strong's Concordance
dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Definition: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Usage: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon clarifies this further:
1. properly, (according to the analogy of other verbs ending in , as τυφλόω, δουλόω) to make δίκαιος; to render righteous or such as he ought to be
3. τινα, to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
3 a. with the negative idea predominant, to declare guiltless one accused or who may be accused, acquitted of a charge or reproach
3 b. with the positive idea predominant, to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable
So justification = to be declared or pronounced to be righteous.
B. WHO IS THE ONE WHO JUSTIFIES?
It is God Himself -- Almighty God -- who justifies purely by His grace.
C. WHO IS THE ONE WHO IS JUSTIFIED?
It is the vilest of sinners who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, e.g. the criminal on the cross, and Saul the persecutor of Christians
D. ON WHAT GROUNDS CAN GOD BE JUST AND THE JUSTIFIER OF THE UNGODLY?
On the sole basis of the finished work of Christ -- His sacrificial death, His burial, and His resurrection.
E. WHY IS JUSTIFICATION APART FROM WORKS?
Because it is purely by the grace of God that any sinner may be justified.
F. HOW DO WE KNOW THIS IS TRUE?
The fourth chapter of the epistle to the Romans lays it all out in black and white.
G. ARE WE THEN SAVED (JUSTIFIED) UNTO GOOD WORKS?
Absolutely. But the works DO NOT justify us. See Ephesians 2:8-10
To understand justification by grace through faith we must enter the Divine Courtroom of God, with God presiding as the absolutely righteous Judge. When we stand before Him, how do we plead? "GUILTY". All of us are guilty of violating one, or more, or all, of God's commandments. What is the just penalty for our guilt? It is death -- both the first and second deaths. But God does not desire to see anyone in Hell (the Lake of Fire created for the devil and his angels).
Therefore Christ paid the full penalty for our sins on the cross, and rose again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION. But how do we appropriate this opportunity to be justified? By obedience to the Gospel, which is repentance toward God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. So the moment a sinner calls upon the Lord to be saved (Romans 10) he or she is justified -- declared righteous and at the same time declared "NOT GUILTY". This has absolutely nothing to do with the future good works God expects from His children.
There is no doubt we are justified by faith. That is by the "word of God". That's what faith is. It's not a verb. it' a noun. Believe is a verb requiring action. You need to get yourself a real Greek lexicon and learn something other than a reformed doctrine invented by Luther and his friends. Of course Abraham was justified by faith. The words which came from God. By the way which command of God did Abraham refuse to obey that justified him?
Strong's is NOT a Greek Lexicon. I know exactly what these words mean. I have been teaching Greek for many years. That's what my PhD is. I do this every day. You still haven't answered my question. Where is the verse telling us that obedience to God's commands is wrong?
Please list. What did God ask Abraham to DO? What command did he give Abraham?
Please list. What did God ask Abraham to DO? What command did he give Abraham?
I like this explanation of faith. It is amazing that saying what something is not helps explain what it is.
Before language was put into the kind of writing we have now it was done in pictographs. Faith was written with a picture of a fist hammering a nail in the wall--meaning to have faith in something meant you could rely on it as able to depend on to be strong and reliable.
So to have faith in Christ includes relying on all Christ tells us as strong, reliable, and right.
Before language was put into the kind of writing we have now it was done in pictographs. Faith was written with a picture of a fist hammering a nail in the wall--meaning to have faith in something meant you could rely on it as able to depend on to be strong and reliable.
So to have faith in Christ includes relying on all Christ tells us as strong, reliable, and right.
Amen lord has a meaning
“So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
Hebrews 5:5-10 KJV
faith is to hear and believe what you hear so “ why ye call Me lord lord and do not what I say “ we need to let that become part of what we believe that’s how faith works we hear and believe and let it fix our issues and bring us into obedience
“So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”
Hebrews 5:5-10 KJV
faith is to hear and believe what you hear so “ why ye call Me lord lord and do not what I say “ we need to let that become part of what we believe that’s how faith works we hear and believe and let it fix our issues and bring us into obedience
Asked and answered. This is just a red herring.
God asked Abraham to do many things. But when and why was Abraham justified? That's the point that needs to be addressed.
GENESIS 15: ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS
1 After these things the Word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the Word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
So what do we learn from this? God made a promise to Abraham which on the surface was an impossibility. But Abraham simply believed God and it was "counted" (or imputed) to him for righteousness.
The naysayers hate the idea that God justifies the sinner who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. That to them is an impossibility!
God asked Abraham to do many things. But when and why was Abraham justified? That's the point that needs to be addressed.
GENESIS 15: ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS
1 After these things the Word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the Word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
So what do we learn from this? God made a promise to Abraham which on the surface was an impossibility. But Abraham simply believed God and it was "counted" (or imputed) to him for righteousness.
The naysayers hate the idea that God justifies the sinner who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. That to them is an impossibility!
Nearly every ignorant and ill-informed reformer quotes this verse in Romans to try to justify their poorly conceived doctrine that we are saved, justified when we refuse to obey the commands of God. That verse in Romans has absolutely nothing to do with Abraham's salvation. ZERO. Paul is writing to Christian gentiles in Rome. These people were already saved, children of God. They had been “baptized into Christ” Rom 6:2. They were being influenced by some who were teaching they should be living under the law of Moses and needed to be circumcised. See Acts 15, Hebrews and Galatians. This was not a new idea. It had been addressed by Paul, Peter, James and many more.
Before God's promise in Gen 17 He gave a command to Abraham to pack up and get out of Dodge. God didn't even tell him where he would land. Yet, Abraham instantly, without question obeyed God.
Gen 12:4 So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Heb 11:9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
And then there is this: Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Why don't these geniuses point to these verses? Because it totally destroys their false doctrine. The word “when” in verse 21 is an adverb of time telling us “WHEN” Abraham was justified in this event.
Why didn't he just say “listen Lord I have already been justified and made righteous, I don't need to do this. This is my only son, why would you ask such a thing?
The word “believed” is a VERB. An action word. Abraham indeed had a son as God told him he would and through that son came the Messiah. Abraham didn't refuse to do ANYTHING, God told him.
This doctrine of justification by not obeying any of God's commands is sending millions to hell.
Before God's promise in Gen 17 He gave a command to Abraham to pack up and get out of Dodge. God didn't even tell him where he would land. Yet, Abraham instantly, without question obeyed God.
Gen 12:4 So Abram departed as the LORD had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Heb 11:9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
And then there is this: Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Why don't these geniuses point to these verses? Because it totally destroys their false doctrine. The word “when” in verse 21 is an adverb of time telling us “WHEN” Abraham was justified in this event.
Why didn't he just say “listen Lord I have already been justified and made righteous, I don't need to do this. This is my only son, why would you ask such a thing?
The word “believed” is a VERB. An action word. Abraham indeed had a son as God told him he would and through that son came the Messiah. Abraham didn't refuse to do ANYTHING, God told him.
This doctrine of justification by not obeying any of God's commands is sending millions to hell.
Not familiar with those Dictionaries but I don't use any English sources when I study the original text. I use Greek sources because I need to know what the words meant in the first century. Another VERY important point is the context of words. Words can only have meaning when we know the context of the word. The writers of the New Testament were not thinking 2000 years ahead. They were inspired by the Holy Spirit and the text was written for those who lived in the first century. Good question.