John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

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Deuteronomy said:
Thanks :)

So back to your comment and my first question, does 1 Corinthians 2:14 do an adequate job of describing what you believe, IOW, that the non-believer can hear the words of God, but he/she cannot accept or understand them from God's POV in their natural, fallen state?
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The bible, that's correct. However, all men can hear the voice of the holy spirit in some way or another. Some listen and learn and are led to Christ; others don't listen/learn and don't find him.
 
tourist said:
Who is this Calvin guy? Is he supposed to be somebody that's important?
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He's the guy who gets blamed for everything in the Bible that people don't like :) What I really want to know about him is how he got his toy tiger Hobbes to speak like that when he was a just a little guy?
 
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Deuteronomy said:
He's the guy who gets blamed for everything in the Bible that people don't like :) What I really want to know about him is how he got his toy tiger Hobbes to speak like that when he was a just a little guy?
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I've wondered that myself too about Hobbs. ;)
 
tourist said:
Who is this Calvin guy?
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Deuteronomy said:
He's the guy who gets blamed for everything in the Bible that people don't like :)
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Like this for instance:

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Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed [ordained] to eternal life believed.
 
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Deuteronomy said:
Like this for instance:
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Acts 13
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed [ordained] to eternal life believed.
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The word for "appointed" or "ordained" is in the middle voice, and it means they were appointing themselves. They did this by choosing to believe the gospel they were hearing.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
God knowing beforehand that Adam would sin does not mean God "predestined" Adam to sin.

Here is God's Will:

Genesis 2:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


According to Gen 2:17, the Will of God for Adam and Eve was do not eat.

Knowing beforehand that Adam and Eve would eat, and having the forethought in His manifold wisdom to provide for the redemption of all mankind because of Adam's and Eve's disobedience, is not the same as God creating Adam for the purpose of sinning.
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We simply believe that God foreordained all things to happen, as they have and still are to this moment and will continue into eternity. We believe He is sovereign over all things. I can't stress the "over all things enough", that means all things
 
eternally-gratefull said:
He put it there as a means to give his creation a choice, you can not have free will unless you have a choice. And your can not chose to receive love and cherish love unless you have a choice.

He did not put it there to force mankind to sin. Think about what your saying man.
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I know it sounds silly, but I actually believe that God is sovereign over all things. That means that nothing happens apart from His will, that leads me to conclude that it was His will that
Musicus said:
Yer nuts. I see it happen all the time.
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Iv'e never heard of a single case where a reprobate was saved, yes there are millions of Judas's making professions of faith but that's another thing all together.
 
Deuteronomy said:
Hi Danny, if it was all a "setup" by God, and our progenitors were made/forced to disobey God by God Himself, 1. how can He hold our first parents culpable for their disobedience in the Garden, and 2. how can He not be considered the true Author of sin/moral evil?

Thanks!

~Deut
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The only logical conclusion is that God made everything, including the opportunity to sin for a season.
 
Danny1988 said:
Iv'e never heard of a single case where a reprobate was saved, yes there are millions of Judas's making professions of faith but that's another thing all together.
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What is the biblical meaning of reprobate?

Strong's Concordance
adokimos: not standing the test, rejected
Transliteration: adokimos

Which means disqualified, failing the test, rejected, unapproved, worthless.

Now the Bible makes it crystal clear that ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God, and that THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS no not one. So if God were in the business of condemning the whole world of sinners (or a large portion thereof), not a single person would be saved, and all would be disqualified and rejected, and deemed reprobate.

But what saith the Scripture?

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30).

If all men everywhere are commanded to repent, and if all would heed that command, then all would be saved. Therefore THERE IS NONE REPROBATE, NO NOT ONE. God offers salvation freely to "whosoever will".

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17).

Presenting the sovereignty of God when the issue is the infinite grace of God means a dishonest presentation of the Gospel. When Christ gave us the parables of the lost coin, the lost sheep, and the lost son, was he presenting the sovereignty of God? And should that not settle the issue?
 
Danny1988 said:
The only logical conclusion is that God made everything, including the opportunity to sin for a season.
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True, but there is HUGE difference between God choosing to test our first parents (to see if they were willing to obey Him or not), and Him causing/forcing them to sin instead.

If 'they' made the choice to sin (of their own volition), then they should be held culpable for sinning, of course. However, if God CAUSED/FORCED them to sin, then how can He possibly consider them guilty of disobeying Him (since they would have had no other choice in the matter)?

Thanks!

~Deut
 
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Deuteronomy said:
True, but there is HUGE difference between God choosing to test our first parents (to see if they were willing to obey Him or not), and Him causing/forcing them to sin instead.

If 'they' made the choice to sin (of their own volition), then they should be held culpable for sinning, of course. However, if God CAUSED/FORCED them to sin, then how can He possibly consider them guilty of disobeying Him (since they would have had no other choice in the matter)?

Thanks!

~Deut
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Both Adam and Eve were saved, so you can't use them to argue your point
 
Danny1988 said:
I know it sounds silly, but I actually believe that God is sovereign over all things. That means that nothing happens apart from His will, that leads me to conclude that it was His will that
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It does not sound silly, it sounds evil, and discusting, it says It was gods will that people who never had a choice were created for the sole purpose of rotting in hell, for being brutalised by evil men or woman, for being tortured or raped, for living in slums where they are disease ridden and have no quality of life, that all the evil we have witnessed and seen is not the result of a fallen and broken world of people who freely made bad choices, but af an evil God who has some fetish of seeing people hurt and suffer.

That feeds right into he lie that satan feeds people about God and you cant even see it.

I am sorry man, but you do onow know God at all if you think that!
 
Danny1988 said:
Both Adam and Eve were saved, so you can't use them to argue your point
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The more you talk, the worse your argument becomes man,

You did not even respond to hat he man said, you just made a wild statement that had nothing to do with what he said to ignore his point.
 
Danny1988 said:
I know it sounds silly, but I actually believe that God is sovereign over all things. That means that nothing happens apart from His will, that leads me to conclude that it was His will that

Iv'e never heard of a single case where a reprobate was saved, yes there are millions of Judas's making professions of faith but that's another thing all together.
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Saul (Paul) wasn't a reprobate?
 
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