Jesus Resurrection

[NWL]

]When was Jesus raised after his death, was it on the same day like the Bible says in Luke 23:43 or was it on the third day like it says in Matthew 12:40

(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: “Truly I tell you, TODAY You will be with me in Paradise.”

(Matthew 12:40) ...The SON OF MAN will be in the heart of the earth THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS.

We know Jesus didn’t go to heaven on the same day as he said in Luke 23 because he says to Mary in John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have NOT YET ascended to the Father so why would Luke 23:43 claim it.

So is the Bible contradictory or should the verse be read like this more or less

(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: “Truly I tell you TODAY [as in I’m telling you right now], You will be with me in Paradise.”

Or is there another explanation?

Thank you everyone for your input if there is any

 

[nukreation]

Perhaps because He and The Father are one, Jesus was saying that today when the guy being crucified beside Him died he would be with the The Father.

 

[NWL]

Perhaps because He and The Father are one, Jesus was saying that today when the guy being crucified beside Him died he would be with the The Father.

Thanks for your input but no that cant be right nukreation, the Bible clearly says this about people going to heaven.

(John 3:13) Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.

So 'until' Jesus went back into heaven as the scripture says no one has been in there, so this rules out the evildoer going into heaven before Jesus, because as stated before, on the third day he hadn't yet gone up into heaven.

Thanks though for trying nukreation

 

[WolfInOxHide]

(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: “Truly I tell you TODAY [as in I’m telling you right now], You will be with me in Paradise.”

This I believe is the proper way to render this verse. The thief had asked Him to remember, and He was saying, "no need to remember, I can tell you today".

If the thief was going "today" to "be" with Him, then how can the thief go today and He not for another 3+ days?

In the source texts, there is no comma, and there is a "dalet proclitic" which invokes the IDEA of what a "today" is, without binding it to any given day. It's like using the word "today" to refer to both days at the same time! Now and an unkown one!

I don't know what the poetic definition of this effect is called in English.

 

[NWL]

This I believe is the proper way to render this verse. The thief had asked Him to remember, and He was saying, "no need to remember, I can tell you today".

If the thief was going "today" to "be" with Him, then how can the thief go today and He not for another 3+ days?

In the source texts, there is no comma, and there is a "dalet proclitic" which invokes the IDEA of what a "today" is, without binding it to any given day. It's like using the word "today" to refer to both days at the same time! Now and an unkown one!

I don't know what the poetic definition of this effect is called in English.

WolfInOxHide Thanks for your answer yes I agree with you as you could see with my previous statement, its true that it's contradictory for Jesus to have meant that the begger was going to Heaven that day.

If there's any other opinion whether you agree or not please say

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

Jesus is saying that no one has been to heaven and received divine knowledge and come down to reveal it to man. Obviously, Enoch and Elijah were taken to Heaven.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Jesus's Spirit ascended to the Father when he died on the cross, his body ascended after the resurrection. So Jesus could very well have seen the thief in Paradise on that very day.

Luk 23:46 And Jesus crying with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this, he gave up the ghost.

 

[NWL]

Closemyeyes2cU Do you have the scripture where is says Jesus "Spirit" ascended to the father on that day or is that from your own interpretation?

Also do you have the scripture where its talks about his body ascending to heaven after the resurrection bearing in mind 1 Corinthians 15:45.

Thanks for you answer btw

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

Closemyeyes2cU Do you have the scripture where is says Jesus "Spirit" ascended to the father on that day or is that from your own interpretation?

Also do you have the scripture where its talks about his body ascending to heaven after the resurrection bearing in mind 1 Corinthians 15:45.

Thanks for you answer btw

Jesus's Spirit returned to the Father immediately at death.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Just like Stephen

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Jesus's body ascended after the resurrection

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

[NWL]

Closemyeyes2cU Thanks for the scripture, I however think that when the Bibe talks about spirit/souls it refers to the person life force.

The simplest way i can put this (maybe I'm wrong) is by asking where does happens to animals after death? there is no heaven or hell for them, look at (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21) For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality..and they all have but one spirit

I like your reasoning about Jesus spirit going to the heaven on the first day and His body on the 40th but if that were true then in my eyes there are 4 Gods of the trinity and not 3.

God the Father
God the Bodily Son
God the Spirit Son
God the Holy Spirit

We cant say there are Three Gods that make up the Trinity and then says Jesus was also a spirit God at the same time being a Physical God. Jesus is either Human or a Spirit. That's why I have to come to the conclusion that in point in scripture and others that Spirit and Soul refer to his Life.

I cant even begin going over Mark 16:19, God = Father,Son,Spirit yes? ( Mark 16:19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and [Jesus] sat on the right hand of Jesus/Father/Spirit. I'm not trying to go against the trinity but how can Jesus sit at the right hand of himself, its completely contradictory. But anyway, i think that scripture was talking symbolically.

So Jesus was in effect saying "And Jesus, having cried with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit, [My Life]. And having said this, he expired.

Again many thanks to your response

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

I believe a persons Soul/Spirit/Consciousness can exist outside of the body. I think Paul makes this very clear in the following verses.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

What do you believe happened to Jesus when he died? Do you believe he just ceased to exist? How can God cease to exist? You do believe that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh right?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is an easy way to explain this.

1. Paradise is not in the presence of the father. No one has seen the father, it is the temporary resting place of the souls awaiting the final ressurection to life.
2. Jesus said plainly. Today you will be with me in this place (Basically he said your sin is forgiven, and I have saved you, so today you will join all those before you who are in paradise awaiting my return.

 

[NWL]

I believe a persons Soul/Spirit/Consciousness can exist outside of the body. I think Paul makes this very clear in the following verses.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

What do you believe happened to Jesus when he died? Do you believe he just ceased to exist? How can God cease to exist? You do believe that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh right?

****I believe a persons Soul/Spirit/Consciousness can exist outside of the body. ****

(Ezekiel 18:4) “..The soul that is sinning—it itself will die..”

(Matthew 26:38) Then he said to them: “My soul is deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch with me.”

But aren’t souls meant to be live past death as you claim? You can have it two ways, that the soul, something separate from the body does die or that a Soul means ‘life’ and that’s what the scripture means, switch the word life with soul and it fits in with the Bible 100%, but from your standpoint there’s a contradiction somewhere. You need to find out what it is.

What do you believe happened to Jesus when he died?

I believe He died and was raised on the third day, and that he ascended to Heaven on the 40th day

Do you believe he just ceased to exist?

No, he lived on in Gods memory for a couple days, and was raised on the third as the Bible says

(Acts 10:40) God raised this One up on the third day and granted him to become manifest

How can God cease to exist?

God cannot cease to exist, he has no beginning nor end

You do believe that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh right?

I believe Jesus was a god manifested in the flesh, (John 1:1,14) “So the Word became flesh”

Thanks for you answer and Qs

 

[xino]

"Today you will be with me in paradise"

he wasn't talking about he will be with him in paradise now.
It was a confirmation from Jesus that AS from today, he WILL be with him in paradise when he dies.

better way to explain it:
'from now you will reign with me in Kingdom of God' (example quote)
whereas we know that Kingdom of God is not even here yet, so when the Kingdom comes, that person Jesus said to will then reign with him. That quote was a key/an invitation to the Kingdom of God.

Just like this quote in John 5:24= "I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life."
as you see...if we listen to his message and believe in God, we have passed from death to life from that moment.


So....from Today, from that very moment, the thief WILL be in Paradise with Jesus, when he dies.

 

[newcovenantchristian]

Why do you think that Paradise means Heaven?

You are right, Jesus did not go straight to Heaven when he died on the cross. You have quoted the scripture which proves that is the case

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

****I believe a persons Soul/Spirit/Consciousness can exist outside of the body. ****

(Ezekiel 18:4) “..The soul that is sinning—it itself will die..”

(Matthew 26:38) Then he said to them: “My soul is deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch with me.”

But aren’t souls meant to be live past death as you claim? You can have it two ways, that the soul, something separate from the body does die or that a Soul means ‘life’ and that’s what the scripture means, switch the word life with soul and it fits in with the Bible 100%, but from your standpoint there’s a contradiction somewhere. You need to find out what it is.

What do you believe happened to Jesus when he died?

I believe He died and was raised on the third day, and that he ascended to Heaven on the 40th day

Do you believe he just ceased to exist?

No, he lived on in Gods memory for a couple days, and was raised on the third as the Bible says

(Acts 10:40) God raised this One up on the third day and granted him to become manifest

How can God cease to exist?

God cannot cease to exist, he has no beginning nor end

You do believe that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh right?

I believe Jesus was a god manifested in the flesh, (John 1:1,14) “So the Word became flesh”

Thanks for you answer and Qs

So you believe Jesus was "a god"? He was not "a god", he was God with a capital G.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

And yes the body and soul are separate things

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[NWL]

Xino

Hey Xino thanks for answering my question

Regarding your reasoning, it is impossible for Jesus to of went to Heaven that day, as Jesus on the third day says to Mary:

(John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father.
How can people then claim that he went to Heaven on the day you died? Do you understand my reasoning and the contradiction?

Jesus says on the day of his death to the theif, “..truly I tell you, today You will be with me in Paradise.” and then on the third day Jesus he says “I have not yet ascended to the Father.”

What do you think Xino?

CloseMyEyes2cU

It weak for you to point to a verse like this as proof Jesus is God, because they don’t have Jesus himself teaching that he was God anywhere in scripture.

This was correct that Greek text literally reads, word for word: “The Lord of me and the God of me.”
Now did Thomas believe Jesus was God, NO, why do I say that, Thomas himself had heard Jesus pray to the Father:

(John 17:1,3) Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father...This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.. . .

Then after Jesus was raised Jesus sent a special message to Thomas and the other disciples by Mary Magdalene:

(John 20:17) . . .Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.. . .

So from Jesus’ prayer that Thomas heard and from this message through Mary Magdalene, Thomas knew who his own God was. His God was not Jesus , but his God was the God of Jesus . Also his Father was the Father of Jesus.

So Thomas knew that Jesus had a God whom he worshiped and it could not possibly be the son of God Jesus.

This scripture can be explained that maybe Paul said it in astonishment as in “OMG”, you show me any verse in the Bible where Jesus is referred directly as Almighty God, or God, you might try, but there truly isn’t one, for you to base your whole belief that Jesus is God on this scripture is stupid of you and of any other chrsitian.

As for John 14:9, “who has seen me has seen the father” the reason for this is because Jesus is the image of God, don’t you think it’s strange that scripture says so many times that Jesus is the IMAGE of God and not God himself, why put the word image if he truly is God?

(Colossians 1:15) He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God

Regarding Matthew 10:28 the actual word instead of Hell in this verse is γέεννα, ης, ἡ {Ge•hen′na}, Gehenna or the lake of fire, it is symbolic for an everlasting cutting off called the second death (Rev. 20:14), whereas Hell/Shoel/Pit refer to the first death which is in an unconscious state-Eccl 9:5

(Revelation 20:14) And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.

CloseMyEyes2cU there’s a question I would like you to answer, if both Soul and Body are destroyed in Hell what is left there to torment?

(Matthew 10:28) “.And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Thanks for you response.

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

CloseMyEyes2cU there’s a question I would like you to answer, if both Soul and Body are destroyed in Hell what is left there to torment?

(Matthew 10:28) “.And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Thanks for you response.

That word "destroyed" can mean left in "Ruin" or to "render useless". It does not necessarily mean that something has ceased to exist.

 

[NWL]

That word "destroyed" can mean left in "Ruin" or to "render useless". It does not necessarily mean that something has ceased to exist.

Meaning of ἀπόλλυμι/apollum,i the scripture state it as Destroy:

destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

If you were to go to Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. and type in Matthew 10:28 and look at what most if not all Bibe translations render the word ἀπόλλυμι.

Closemyeyes Do you really think that if they the translator's thought that when the speaker said ἀπόλλυμ, was referring to the word as "Ruin" or "render Useless" that at least one of them would render it that way?

Do you think that you're better Bible translator than any of these one and that's why you've come to the decision that the word Destroy should be rendered as "Ruin" or "Render Useless"? Genuine Questions btw

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

Meaning of ἀπόλλυμι/apollum,i the scripture state it as Destroy:

destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

If you were to go to Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. and type in Matthew 10:28 and look at what most if not all Bibe translations render the word ἀπόλλυμι.

Closemyeyes Do you really think that if they the translator's thought that when the speaker said ἀπόλλυμ, was referring to the word as "Ruin" or "render Useless" that at least one of them would render it that way?

Do you think that you're better Bible translator than any of these one and that's why you've come to the decision that the word Destroy should be rendered as "Ruin" or "Render Useless"? Genuine Questions btw

The word "destroy" is fine. But to destroy something doesn't necessarily mean you cause it to cease to exist. I can say my life is destroyed, but I'm still alive, I simply mean my life is ruined.

Pulpit commentary
To destroy (ἀπολέσα&#953. The class of words to which this belongs denotes "utter and hopeless ruin; but they convey no idea whether the ruined object ceases to exist or continues a worthless existence"

Thayer's Greek Definitions
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67


"Closemyeyes Do you really think that if they the translator's thought that when the speaker said ἀπόλλυμ, was referring to the word as "Ruin" or "render Useless" that at least one of them would render it that way?

Do you think that you're better Bible translator than any of these one and that's why you've come to the decision that the word Destroy should be rendered as "Ruin" or "Render Useless"? Genuine Questions btw "

Aren't you being a bit hypocritical here? You dont believe that Jesus saw the thief in Paradise on that very same day? Dont you think if the comma was in the wrong place at least one of them would have rendered it that way? Do you think you are a better translator than any of these?

(KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(ASV) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

(Darby) And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(DRB) And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

(ESV) And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

(GNB) Jesus said to him, "I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me."

(GW) Jesus said to him, "I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise."

(LITV) And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

(MKJV) And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

(RV) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

(LEB) And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

(Webster) And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(YLT) and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

(NIV) Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

(NASB) And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

 

[Laodicea]

]When was Jesus raised after his death, was it on the same day like the Bible says in Luke 23:43 or was it on the third day like it says in Matthew 12:40

(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: “Truly I tell you, TODAY You will be with me in Paradise.”

(Matthew 12:40) ...The SON OF MAN will be in the heart of the earth THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS.

We know Jesus didn’t go to heaven on the same day as he said in Luke 23 because he says to Mary in John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have NOT YET ascended to the Father so why would Luke 23:43 claim it.

So is the Bible contradictory or should the verse be read like this more or less

(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: “Truly I tell you TODAY [as in I’m telling you right now], You will be with me in Paradise.”

Or is there another explanation?

Thank you everyone for your input if there is any

There is no punctuation in the original so the comma could easily be moved after today rather than before. Jesus did not go to paradise when He died rather after the resurrection