jesus is not God
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Tintin
Guest
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GraceBeUntoYou
Guest
Not quite. These two texts (2 Peter 1.1, Titus 2.13) are examples of what is commonly known as Granville Sharp's "The—Substantive—Kai—Substantive" construction, which in effect states, that when two singular personal nouns (not proper names, such as “Jesus Christ,” "John," "James," "Peter," "Paul") are connected by "kai" ("and"), and the article "ho" ("the") or any of its cases ("ton," "tou") precedes the first noun/participle, both nouns refer to one singular person/individual. Or as it is defined by Sharp himself,
"When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e., it denotes a farther description of the first named person” (Granville Sharp, Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament: Containing Many New Proofs of the Divinity of Christ, From Passages Which are Wrongly Translated in the Common English Version, [Philadelphia: B. B. Hopkins and Co., 1807], p. 3).
For instance, consider 2 Peter 1:11,
tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou
It's vital to understand that there are passages such as Matthew 21:12 ("tous polountas kai agroazontas” ["those who were buying and selling"]), and Mark 11:15 ( “tous polountas kai agroazontas” [“those who were buying and selling”]) which appear to have a very similar structure to Sharp's TSKS construction, though, they do not fit the rule, due to the fact that they do not use singular personal nouns as defined by the rule, rather, plural participles. Let me reiterate for clarity sake that there are three essential things that must be stressed when determining whether a passage is a valid example of the rule:
1.) The passage possesses two singular personal nouns, i.e., “God,” “Lord,” “Master,” “King,” “Savior,” et al (i.e., "tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou")
3.) The article "ho" ("the"), or any of its cases, precedes the first noun/participle (i.e., "tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou")
A.) This excludes,
2.) The copulative "kai" connects the two singular personal nouns (i.e., "tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou") a.) proper names, such as, “Jesus Christ,” "Paul," "John," "Peter”
b.) impersonal nouns, such as, “gold,” “stone,” “rock,” “tree”
c.) plural participles, such as, “generals,” “kings,” “princes,” “buying-ones,” “selling-ones”
b.) impersonal nouns, such as, “gold,” “stone,” “rock,” “tree”
c.) plural participles, such as, “generals,” “kings,” “princes,” “buying-ones,” “selling-ones”
3.) The article "ho" ("the"), or any of its cases, precedes the first noun/participle (i.e., "tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou")
Additionally, in three of these four passages where the author uses "Savior Jesus Christ," he unanimously signifies a mutual identity with the preceding/head noun:
2 Peter 1:1 - tou Theou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou ("our God and Savior Jesus Christ")
2 Peter 1:11 - tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou ("our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ")
2 Peter 2:20 - tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou (“our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”)
2 Peter 3:18 - tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou ("our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ")
2 Peter 1:11 - tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou ("our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ")
2 Peter 2:20 - tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou (“our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”)
2 Peter 3:18 - tou Kuriou hemon kai Soteros Iesou Christou ("our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ")
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GraceBeUntoYou
Guest
Similarly to that of 2 Peter 1:1, Titus 2:13 is another example of Granville Sharp’s construction, where the two singular personal nouns, "Theos" ("God") and "Soteros" ("Savior") refer to one individual.
The question in regards to translation of this passage is whether “Jesus Christ” is in apposition to, 1.) “our great God and Savior," where Jesus is being identified as “our great God and Savior” or in apposition to 2.) "the glory of our great God and Savior,” where Jesus could potentially be referred to astheglory of God the Father. This subsequent concept takes “the glory” as the subject to the verbal noun “appearing,” so that it is “the glory” that becomes manifest. Even if one were to adopt the view that “Jesus Christ” is in apposition to “the glory of our great God and Savior,” it doesn’t necessarily follow that Christ is being referred to as “the glory,” but can also, just as easily be referring to the glory of Jesus Christ, who is our great God and Savior -- “the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”
That being said, there are major issues with this subsequent view which refers to Christ as “the glory,”
1.) The verbal distance between “the glory” and “Jesus Christ.” “Jesus Christ” is in close apposition to “Savior.”
2.) Paul frequently uses τῆς δόξης (“the glory”
attributively in his writings.
3.) Paul’s usage of ἐπιφαίνω refers to the appearance of God’s glory, and love (Titus 2:13; 3:4), whereas, ἐπιφάνεια is used when referring to the manifestation of the Person of Christ Himself (Titus 2:10-14 [c.f. 2 Timothy 1:8-10]; 1 Timothy 6:14),Titus 2:10-14, and 2 Timothy 1:8-10 are identical to one another in many ways, but it needs to be pointed out that in both occasions ἐπιφάνεια is used to describe the appearing of Christ Jesus, who gave Himself in order to redeem His own.
4.) In every other instance where the phraseology “Savior Jesus Christ” occurs throughout the New Testament, it is always found in the TSKS construction, and in each occurrence “Savior” is always in reference to none other than the Son. In order for the subsequent view to be correct, “Savior” must be detached from “Jesus Christ” and applied to the Father, despite the other four examples which unanimously apply to Christ.
5.) It ignores the remainder of the sentence found in v. 14. Is it not the same one who is identified as the Savior of v. 13 that “gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds” (v. 14)?
6.) If Titus 2:13 read, “the glory of our great Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,” would Christ still be referred to as “the glory,” or as the “Lord and Savior”?
2.) Paul frequently uses τῆς δόξης (“the glory”
attributively in his writings.3.) Paul’s usage of ἐπιφαίνω refers to the appearance of God’s glory, and love (Titus 2:13; 3:4), whereas, ἐπιφάνεια is used when referring to the manifestation of the Person of Christ Himself (Titus 2:10-14 [c.f. 2 Timothy 1:8-10]; 1 Timothy 6:14),
“For the grace of God has appeared [ἐπιφαίνω], bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing [ἐπιφάνεια] of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works” (Titus 2:10-14, ESV)
“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing [ἐπιφάνεια] of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Timothy 1:8-10, ESV)
“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing [ἐπιφάνεια] of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Timothy 1:8-10, ESV)
4.) In every other instance where the phraseology “Savior Jesus Christ” occurs throughout the New Testament, it is always found in the TSKS construction, and in each occurrence “Savior” is always in reference to none other than the Son. In order for the subsequent view to be correct, “Savior” must be detached from “Jesus Christ” and applied to the Father, despite the other four examples which unanimously apply to Christ.
5.) It ignores the remainder of the sentence found in v. 14. Is it not the same one who is identified as the Savior of v. 13 that “gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds” (v. 14)?
6.) If Titus 2:13 read, “the glory of our great Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,” would Christ still be referred to as “the glory,” or as the “Lord and Savior”?
, it completely shuts the door on this subsequent view where Christ is referred to in this passage as “the glory” of the Father. The grammatical basis for this is the reality that a descriptive noun in the genitive following another noun may exhibit an attributive use of the genitive, in which the noun functions as a description of the preceding noun – “glorious body” (Philippians 3:21), “glorious might” (Colossians 1:11), “glorious inheritance” (Ephesians 1:18), “glorious gospel” (1 Timothy 1:11), et al. 
I dunno why?
Why do birds fly?
All he said was Jesus is Jehovah and all guns should be banned from slaves....
I don't see anything wrong with that. - In fact, coming from an slave I applaud him.
Very few of them actually show initiative you know.
Why do birds fly?
All he said was Jesus is Jehovah and all guns should be banned from slaves....
I don't see anything wrong with that. - In fact, coming from an slave I applaud him.
Very few of them actually show initiative you know.
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nathan3
Guest
It is said that Christ is God, because the scripture that say that :
Colossians 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Philippians 2:6-8
King James Version
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
If you find it strange that God would do this for us, Then read the living Word's own teachings :
Matthew 20 :
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
If those scripture is to vague for you lets continue .
John 1: King James Version
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. ( Pretty straight on target here)
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So what was just stated about the Word ? The Word was with God in the beginning ,and the Word was God.
and what happened next ? He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. That should have set off all sorts of bells for you.
Then what ? its written next: 14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. It says that the Word was God at the start. Pretty simple yeah ?
That scripture alone is enough for me to say Christ is God.
But if you need more scripture there is more that teaches this.
Matthew 1:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
God with us ? well, its plainly stated .
Not enough ?
John 14:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
We can go a little farther with it into more scriptures :
Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
God includes Himself in that statement, There would be people in the image of the angles ,that means to look just like them. And there would be some one in the image of God; the scriptures before indicate Who that was.
The Word was made flesh, and the Word was God.
Hebrews 1:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
By whom He made the worlds ( times; in the Hebrew)
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Christ was the express image of God, by whom he made the worlds ?
Hebrews 2 :
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
So we see He also Himself likewise too part of the same, as His children.
speaking of God - Genesis 2:3 & Christ speaking of Christ - Matthew 12:8
Exodus 3:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
John 8:58-59
King James Version (KJV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
There are other scriptures that i cant remember that Have Christ as being 'I AM' .
Isaiah 43:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
Acts 4:10
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Isaiah 9:6-7
King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Revelation 1:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Isaiah 44:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
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JLHillsSr
Guest
I have read a lot of this thread and it seems that no one has the correct answer. There is a really good answer for this. You are correct in saying that Jesus is not God.
Take a look at what John the Baptist says when he sees him coming:
Jhn 1:29 KJV - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jhn 1:30 KJV - This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jhn 1:31 KJV - And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Keep in mind, John is older than Jesus, (@ 6 months; Luke 1:36). So how is it that "he was before me."?
John was not referring to the man, but the one that dwelt within. The Body was created by the Father, (The Spirit of the Highest,) for Jehovah, the I Am, the Word, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, to take away the sins of the world.
Jesus, the humanity, was a faithful servant of Jehovah. Learning his ways from his mother's breast, (Psalm 22:9), and not revealing himself until John 20:17. Notice that Mary Magdalene, a woman who loved Jesus, did not recognize him, until he spoke her name.
Jhn 20:17 KJV - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
So, in closing, Truthfull, would Jesus be going to see himself? I think not. Remember what Stephen saw when he looked up stedfastly into heaven,
Act 7:55 KJV - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
He saw Jehovah, (the glory of God, the Father,) the humanity, (Jesus,) standing on the right hand of God, the Father.
This is a good verse for those who dispute the Trinity.
This is the Godhead who is three in one. ONE GOD.
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JLHillsSr
Guest
So, PS, what you are saying, here is, one can not believe in the the only begotten Son of the Father, i.e. Jehovah, the humanity, Jesus, and the Body, as well as, the Father, the Son, Jehovah, and the Holy Spirit? That seems a little close minded, does it not.
Hebrews 10:5 speaks volumes, here, when you acknowledge the one speaking to be Jehovah:
Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me :
This is Jehovah's declaration to the Father, for the conception in Luke 1:35.
I don't have any difficulty accepting it. That is what I believe with all my heart.
However there are people who have difficulty in understanding that omnipresent Jehovah can be in both heaven and on earth even though scripture confirms it.
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1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
"Right hand" occurs frequently. My understanding is that it is a turn of phrase or a Hebrew idiom. Psalm 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."
Exo 15:6 "Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy."
God is a tripartite being, body, soul and spirit the same as we are and Jesus as God on earth is the physical presence. The Father who is Spirit doesn't have hands so it isn't to be taken literally and I see it as confirmation of one tripartite omnipresent God.
Thank you. All things are possible with the Lord. I sometimes think we forget this?
I feel we can say with the Psalmist in Psalm 119 "Open my eyes so that I may contemplate wonderful things from Your instruction."
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xXErraticEmilyXx
Guest
Jesus said to only worship God and he allows us to worship him. Father+ son+ holy spirit = God.
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JLHillsSr
Guest
Thank you. All things are possible with the Lord. I sometimes think we forget this?
I feel we can say with the Psalmist in Psalm 119 "Open my eyes so that I may contemplate wonderful things from Your instruction."
It is my experience, that knowing and believing the TRUTH of what accualy happened on the cross, is crucial to the spiritual growth of my brothers and sisters. A prime example of this is John 14:13 & 16:26.
He tells us to ask the Father in his name. His name is not Jesus. It is, however, Jehovah.
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